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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Skywalker" data-source="post: 63614" data-attributes="member: 1538">Psion: Sorry to pop up again.  Obviously there is both a difference of preference and experience here.  I have rarely found the need to "hand-hold" players.  Most games I have played I have been able to trust my players to use the system in front of them (whether classless or not) to create their PCs.  I would say that if I did feel that I a game made it necessary for me to "hand-hold" players I would likewise not like that game also.  However this handholding feeling has very little to do with classes.  Its about a balanced system which can be achieved with or without classes.Just a quick point (and I am not trying to be antagonistic here).  Of all games out I probably find D&D requires me as GM to be "hand-hold" players more.  Multi-classing , prestige classes and the modifying of classes I find often create the opportunity to cause imbalance between players.  Some of this is to do with the graininess of the classes and the difficulty of dissecting them.  Its like currency selling and arbitrage, where there is a gap there is a chance to exploit <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  This is most apparent in multiclassing.  However I think ultimately some of my problem arises from the power level of D&D and not classes.  In Cthulhu it doesn't matter what you choose everyone is of similar power (puny mortals).  This is the same as Silhouette, Blue Planet and Unknown Armies.  In D&D though increases in power bring fantastical power which when manipulated can become difficult to balance.  This is not a class problem but something I would expect from a game with D&Ds advancements rate (there's that damned level issue again <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> ) I think you are making an assumption opposite to what many here have done.  Some classless system are extremely balanced.  So I ask if you had a classless system where you didn't need to "hand-hold" throughout creation would you be happy?  Again this may relate to experience and preference.  Your past comments about Cthulhu PCs being abusable because of their open nature suggests to me that we differ wildly here.  In Cthulhu no matter what skills you take it has in my experience had very little impact on balance.  However in D&D I have found the opposite.Again this has something to do with power level as well (though its moving off topic).  In Unknown Armies all PCs are relatively the same power no matter how you try and rig it.  A gun will kill you, gibbering monsters make you go insane and your human.  There is still plenty of room to move and have interesting PCs but you don't get fantastical powers that are difficult to balance (or if you do they are meant to be unbalancing) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />   Well at least I learnt something.  I think my issues with D&D have more to do with its epic feeling and difficulty in balancing the fantastical powers PCs get.  Most classless system I like are for low powered games.  I think the more high powered you get the more I like classes to control Players egos <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Actually one last thought it also depends on how you view balance vs player freedom.  Again as I have played more and more I want balance but not as much as freedom for my players to make interesting PCs.  As long as everyone is happy (and some of my PCs like playing low powered bundering idiots even if they have the choice of playing that spiffing warrior) I find that the need to have a rule system to enforce a balance on me annoying.  Again there are power issues here.  In a game like D&D and other epic fantasy games where power and level of power are important then classes are more acceptable.Maybe levels and classes are more integral than I thought?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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