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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kenjib" data-source="post: 64544" data-attributes="member: 530">Yes, but the different emphasis is important.  You are saying that a person should be able to create a custom class for their character.  I am saying that you should be able to completely custom build your character level by level (I retain levels because I honestly think that it's the *ultimate* sacred cow of D&D and can not be disposed of - although you might be able to create a system that works both ways, with and without levels, depending on how you designed the character building concept).  Whereas you still advocate a set of pre-built classes for characters I am saying that each and every character is it's own unique class, which means that the system is effectively classless.The only "class" mechanism in my example is something that would say:  If you want an effective fighter, here is a suggestion for how you can spend your points level by level:1.  Buy d10, +1 BaB, +2 fort, simple weapon prof, martial weapon prof, light armor prof, medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, shielf prof, and an extra feat from this list:  combat reflexes, expertise, etc...2.  Buy d10, +1 BaB, +1 fort, and an extra feat from this list:  combat reflexes, expertise, etc...However, a character could decide that at first level he'd rather have no heavy armor or shield prof, a high reflex instead fort and pick up an extra dodge feat because he wants a more mobile fighter.  Then at second level he could take d6 hit points, 1d6 sneak attack, track, and wilderness lore, because the story has forced him down a different path and he's going to become a bounty hunter.  By the way, this is just a rough example for the purpose of illustration and it's not meant to be balanced.It's the same rule system but with a different end user application.  The thing is, I see your argument as actually in favor of a classless system.  You just prefer to choose how the characters spend their character building points for them instead of letting them make the choice on their own.  Let's seperate these two arguments.  Use a classless system and you as the DM have a right to apply classes if you choose - or not to.  You, Psion, can choose to prebuild character paths and call them classes (as you could very easily do right now in a system like GURPS) and I, Kenji, can choose not to.  However, still calling this a classed system is very misleading, because it's not - the classes are just a framework/limitation imposed by the DM, not the system.  You could create classes just like this using the GURPS rules as they stand without any rules changes other than saying that the characters can't control point expenditure, but it does not make the underlying GURPS game a classed system.In a sense, I think that the distinction is mostly of the "half full" versus "half empty" variety, but I think that it is important in this case because it underlies an important point:  With my example you can have one system that is effectively both classed AND classless and retain all of the advantages of both.  There needs to be no taking sides regarding which one is better beyond how it impacts your own individual campaign.  The DM can choose how to implement the system in the way that best serves his purposes.  However, in order to do this, the framework of such a system at it's most basic "assembly language" level must be fundamentally classless.Sure a point system can be abusable but I'm sure that you've seen Mr. Ginsu and some of the other Sultans of Smack.  Class systems seem just as abusable to me if they are made to be flexible and expandible like D&D is.  You can disallow some of these class based abuses, but by the same token you can disallow classless based abuses.Regarding character concepts not being well themed (i.e. having d12 hit points but poor BaB and fort save), that's why I suggested a system of synergy incentives for related things.I'm not a game designer so I can't make an elegant example, but here's a rough one - If you buy at least one of the following, the others are purchasable at 1 point less than cost:  +BaB, +fort save, +d10 hp, +d12 hp.  This would encourage a character to bundle related abilities since it is more efficient for him to do so.  This exact mechanic might not work, but I'm sure one of the pros could think of a more elegant system to achieve similar results.The bottom line is that you can have your cake and eat it too.  Oh, happy day!</blockquote>

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