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<blockquote data-quote="Skywalker" data-source="post: 64984" data-attributes="member: 1538">Just to stick up for Psion who has been put to the wolves <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I do think that classes are an extremely useful tool for RPGs.&nbsp; We can't just assume that every RPG and every RPGer has the same needs and wants.&nbsp; A character is at its very basic a collection of numbers.&nbsp; The idea of a class system is not to influence the concepts that players can come up but to influence the unavoidable and artificial rule component that underlies them.&nbsp; Many games use some form of class structure for a number of useful reasons and for the most part any RPGer with experience can look to modify these underlying structure if it is believed that it interferes with the players concepts.&nbsp; What people do need to remeber though is that when a game uses classes it will incorporate an idea of the setting.&nbsp; Good class systems are appropriate to the game itself e.g. D&amp;D has suitable classes for an epic high powered fantasy game.d20 has shown that D&amp;D is not the universal fantasy game that some believed it was.&nbsp; However it has shown that by some modification to the rules (inc classes) it can accomodate any game.&nbsp; I think that any game could.&nbsp; I find that where a game is epic and highpowered then classes become even more useful.&nbsp; Trying to distill all parts of the game down to points is a risky business even for game designers.&nbsp; Essentially an impossible task to quantify substantive elements.&nbsp; D&amp;D for example is full of powers that are not quantifiable and its use of classes is relatively smooth and easy (its been a success for many years).&nbsp; Again if any small tinkering is required this shouldn't be too difficult (especially where guidelines are provided) and if large tinkering is required perhaps you should look to see whether the game is really supporting the style you want to play.Finally even classless systems are not universal.&nbsp; GURPS is a great example in that is does incorporate a style of play into the PCs.&nbsp; Classes are just an attempt to recognise the game's setting and provide ease of use.&nbsp; Finally classes are extremely useful for beginners.&nbsp; I recently ran some RPG as a school project with 10 year olds.&nbsp; Classless systems failed to capture their imaginations or control the base human urge to outshine others.&nbsp; Classes helped promote cooperation, role identification and concept building.&nbsp; All of these are important RPG skills that should be learned and sometimes never are.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Skywalker, post: 64984, member: 1538"] Just to stick up for Psion who has been put to the wolves :) I do think that classes are an extremely useful tool for RPGs. We can't just assume that every RPG and every RPGer has the same needs and wants. A character is at its very basic a collection of numbers. The idea of a class system is not to influence the concepts that players can come up but to influence the unavoidable and artificial rule component that underlies them. Many games use some form of class structure for a number of useful reasons and for the most part any RPGer with experience can look to modify these underlying structure if it is believed that it interferes with the players concepts. What people do need to remeber though is that when a game uses classes it will incorporate an idea of the setting. Good class systems are appropriate to the game itself e.g. D&D has suitable classes for an epic high powered fantasy game. d20 has shown that D&D is not the universal fantasy game that some believed it was. However it has shown that by some modification to the rules (inc classes) it can accomodate any game. I think that any game could. I find that where a game is epic and highpowered then classes become even more useful. Trying to distill all parts of the game down to points is a risky business even for game designers. Essentially an impossible task to quantify substantive elements. D&D for example is full of powers that are not quantifiable and its use of classes is relatively smooth and easy (its been a success for many years). Again if any small tinkering is required this shouldn't be too difficult (especially where guidelines are provided) and if large tinkering is required perhaps you should look to see whether the game is really supporting the style you want to play. Finally even classless systems are not universal. GURPS is a great example in that is does incorporate a style of play into the PCs. Classes are just an attempt to recognise the game's setting and provide ease of use. Finally classes are extremely useful for beginners. I recently ran some RPG as a school project with 10 year olds. Classless systems failed to capture their imaginations or control the base human urge to outshine others. Classes helped promote cooperation, role identification and concept building. All of these are important RPG skills that should be learned and sometimes never are. [/QUOTE]

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