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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Christian" data-source="post: 1522991" data-attributes="member: 381">If casters don't have to roll saves, but automatically disbelieve their own illusions, then Shadow Evocation becomes a much more useful spell. (I target the Shadow Fireball 5' away from my location!)'Disbelief' is a technical term in the rules, referring to a successful save against a spell with a 'Will (disbelief)' entry on the Saving Throw line. There's nothing to indicate that casters automatically make their save, get the choice to fail, or anything else (even a save bonus!). Evidently, a caster can be fooled by his own Silent Image. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />My ruling would be that a caster automatically saves against his own figments, but has to roll a saving throw (which can be voluntarily failed) against his own phantasms and shadows. (Don't ask me why a wizard would target himself with a phantasm ...) If he chooses to make a roll, I'd give him the +4 that someone who'd been told the phantasm/shadow was false, even if nobody tells him. He's got a real good clue, after all. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm very comfortable with this ruling for figments and phantasms. (Figments can't actually affect anything, and phantasms are mind-affecting, so I can accept that they can drive the memory of the spellcasting out of the caster's head.) Shadows are definitely a weird case ... I'd say that voluntarily failing the save is a case of 'I make a point of believing six impossible things before breakfast', but I don't know what rolling and failing would be ...</blockquote>

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