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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 1523611" data-attributes="member: 1465">People, I really appreciate your help and comments, but I don't think this is really a matter of belief. Not all illusions are a matter of belief.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Take Invisibility for example, which is a glamer. You don't get a saving throw to disbelieve that someone is invisible. Even if your friend tells you &quot;I am going to cast invisibility on myself and grapple you&quot;, you don't suddenly see him again when he grapples you because you have &quot;incontrovertible proof&quot;. If you cast invisibility on an object or another creature, you don't see it just because you are the caster and of course know it is an illusion.Shadows spells are said to be &quot;quasi-real&quot;, an incomplete definition indeed. If they damage you or otherwise give you some disadvantage they are clearly stated to have lesser effects once recognized as illusory, but this doesn't necessarily apply to their substance*. The only clear thing is that they are frail because of the less HPs, but I cannot say whether for example the weight less.*although that could have some interesting game implications: you secretely shadow-conjure a mount in place of your enemy's steed, and when he is riding and spirited-charging you shout &quot;dude, it's fake!&quot; and he falls with his butt on the ground...&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 1523611, member: 1465"] People, I really appreciate your help and comments, but I don't think this is really a matter of belief. Not all illusions are a matter of belief. :) Take Invisibility for example, which is a glamer. You don't get a saving throw to disbelieve that someone is invisible. Even if your friend tells you "I am going to cast invisibility on myself and grapple you", you don't suddenly see him again when he grapples you because you have "incontrovertible proof". If you cast invisibility on an object or another creature, you don't see it just because you are the caster and of course know it is an illusion. Shadows spells are said to be "quasi-real", an incomplete definition indeed. If they damage you or otherwise give you some disadvantage they are clearly stated to have lesser effects once recognized as illusory, but this doesn't necessarily apply to their substance*. The only clear thing is that they are frail because of the less HPs, but I cannot say whether for example the weight less. *although that could have some interesting game implications: you secretely shadow-conjure a mount in place of your enemy's steed, and when he is riding and spirited-charging you shout "dude, it's fake!" and he falls with his butt on the ground... :p [/QUOTE]

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