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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tzarevitch" data-source="post: 1525142" data-attributes="member: 1792">Honestly, this is why I have hated the Shadow Magic spells since even before 3e. I hate them because they are poorly thought out. The issue of --% real and belief or disbelief make no sense in cases where the spell does anything other than straight damage. I have had players in my campaign who have used Shadow Magic spells frequently and they cause a lot of problems. Take the phantom steed/mount question. Another issue that it brings up is whose belief controls? If I make a shadow magic phantom steed, and Bob is interacting with it does my belief control whether it is real or not or does Bob's? Note that like many conjuration spells it is not cast "on" anyone. Also, what if you load a sack of gold on the mount, does this work? The gold can't believe in the mount in the first place. Here is another variant of your fog cloud question:Take one of the fire spells that can set people or objects on fire as a subsidiary effect. You cast it at flammable oil. Does the oil burn? This generates two followup questions:1. Can shadow magic reproduce special properties of a material or energy since it is not that material or energy  (i.e. does shadow magic fire burn? can you gain nurishment from conjured shadow water? does shadow magic ice melt?) and if it can, what is the subsidiary effect (if shadow magic can set paper on fire, is the subsidiary paper fire also shadow magic since the shadow magic spell is gone? Does shadow magic ice melt and if so what does it leave you with? A shadow puddle?). 2. Oil is not sentient. It has no ability to believe the fire is "real" in the first place, so what happens when the shadow fire hits it?  Does it auto-disbelive? Here's another one:What if the oil is on a person? If the person "believes" that the fire is real and he is affected, can the shadow magic fire effect the oil or even his clothing? Does a sentient being's belief of disbelief change the results for an object that is incapable of belief? Replace the paper with a fire giant. If you cast the same spell on a fire giant what happens? The giant is immune to fire, so is he immune to shadow magic fire? What then if he disbelieves the illusion? Note now that if the giant is immune to shadow magic fire because it is immitating real fire, his disbelief of the illusion suddenly means that he takes more damage because it is now no longer fire.Tzarevitch</blockquote>

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