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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 2520264" data-attributes="member: 2525">Sorry to bring up this old thread guys, but I just had to chime in here...Read the spell you are specifically talking about again (rather than just the concept of "illusion") and you will see this whole debate is a moot point."You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces..."You don't need to fool yourself into believing your illusion spell is real...you already know for sure that it IS at least partially real.  I don't see how you could not volunteer to fail your save knowing full well that, even if you made your save then 1/5 of the time it's STILL going to be real despite your disbelief. It's like when you are driving in your car and are worried you are about to barely scrape something on the side unless you move.  Even if you think there is only 20% chance that you will hit something if you keep going straight, it's quite simple to just believe you WILL hit something and move slightly out of the way to avoid it.  If there is real doubt, its much easier to operate as if it is real rather than disbelieve something you know might well be real.I think common sense in this case says you should always be able to volunteer to fail your save concerning shadow evocations and conjuations...as there is a decent chance your belief will turn out to be correct (even more than decent if you take the Shadowcraft Mage and Shadowcrafter Prestige Classes - at the point where there is a 60-100% chance it's real, you would be a fool to disbelieve).</blockquote>

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