Shadow Magic Questions

[takyris]

I don't usually come to RulesLand, but I've got a player whose sorcerer has picked up Greater Shadow Evocation, and he and I are running into disagreements on what would work when and where.

Basically, the gist of it is, "How does the darn thing work?" It's not listed as mind-affecting, so it even affects undead, correct? What about evocation spells that don't involve saving throws? Or that benefit people? If he uses an evocation spell like Daylight or Continual Light or whatever it is to cancel a Darkness Spell, does everyone in the area have to save? Does the caster of the darkness spell have to save?

How about shadow evocation of Tenser's Floating Disk -- does he try to fail a save himself so that it carries the full weight, or does it automatically fail for him and is only 60% likely to carry the weight? Same with Leomund's Tiny Hut -- does the caster try to blow his own save and just not mention the fact that it's only partially a real place to his friends?

Pardon me if these are dumb questions that have been done to death. Just asking the question has helped -- looking through here, I can see at least one spell he's used that isn't actually an evocation spell at all.

-Tacky

 

[durath]

What we've done

My PC has a cohort who uses shadow conjuration. One time she used it to summon mounts for the party. We ruled that if she told them they were real and to believe in the magic that the PC's could forego the save and the mounts would be "real" for them.

I believe the rules state that you can forego a save whenever you like so if your caster uses the spell and wants to forego the save then I'd say whatever he used it for is perfectly real for them.

 

[Zhure]

For simplicity's sake, I treat beneficial shadow blah as if the target had failed a save. So a shadow tensers floating disc has 60% of it's normal capacity.

 

[kigmatzomat]

From the SRD on shadow conjurations

Shadow conjurations are actually X% as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength.

All those that interact with the conjured object, force, or creature can make Will saves to recognize its shadowy nature. Those who succeed do so.

Attack spells, such as flame arrow, have normal effects unless those affected succeed at Will saves. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is X% as strong (if applicable) or only X% likely to occur. Mimicked spells allow the normal saves and SR.


and on shadow evocation
Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, affected creatures are also allowed any save the spell being simulated allows, but set the save DC according to shadow magic’s level rather than the spell’s normal level. Nondamaging effects (such as web’s ensnarement) have no effect when the shadow magic is recognized as mostly illusory.

So Ian the 12th level Illusionist uses Shades, a 6th level shadow conjuration spell with 60% reality to create a flame arrow's flaming bolt. After Ian makes his ranged touch attacks, the targets make a will save against the illusion at DC:10+Ian's Int+6 (shades' level). If they fail they start at full damage (4d6/bolt) and then make the reflex save at DC 10+ian's int+3 (flame arrow level) for half that. If they make the will save they are at 40% damage where they then make the reflex save to cut that in half (down to 20% damage).

If Ian used the "flaming missle" version of flame arrow that gets no reflex save, the targets would make the same will save to see if they took the full 10pts of fire damage or only 4pts

Ian uses Shades to Summon a viper. The target makes the same will save. If he fails, every time the viper's bite attack works they have to make the Fort save vs. the poison or it has full effect. If they make the will save, the poision will only work 40% of the time. (alternately it will only be at 40% strength; this is up to GMs to decide)

Ian uses 5th level Shadow Evocation to cast a fireball. They make a will save vs 10+ian's int + 5. Success means they are only threatened by 20% of the 10d6 fireball. Fail and they can take the full 10d6. Regardless, they then get the Reflex save for half damage, but this save is at 10+ian's int+5 based on the shadow evocation level rather than the spell mimicked. This is different that shadow conjurations.

The only real "ruling" you have to make is how to handle the 40% effect/40% of the time question. Personally, anything that is all or nothing or a non-variable effect (e.g. -1 level) works 40% of the time. After that it gets a bit, er, shadowy.

-James McP

 

[takyris]

I understand how it works for damaging effects. I'm more concerned about instances where it's a beneficial spell, one that people wouldn't necessarily WANT to save against. Like when the PCs could use a Tenser's Floating Disk, or might want to walk across a Wall of Force that's being used as a bridge over a lava-filled chasm. If the PC cleric has points in spellcraft and makes his check, he KNOWS that the PC just cast "Shadow Evocation" -- so can that PC voluntarily fail a Will save?

And the Daylight spell -- how about that? Would people get a save, and if they saved, it would be only 40 or 60% likely to actually work? The people who made the save might be stuck in the darkness still, while the people who failed the save would be seeing normally. The wizard casting the spell might be stuck in darkness, since he's treated as automatically making his save... right?

-Tacky

 

[LokiDR]

this is a similar debate to the 2nd ed "Sillopsis" spell, or something like that. The idea was that you create an illusion which is real so long as you believe it is. Very handy for making doors.

Personally, I think any person can forgoe a save. I once tricked a party into accepting a lesser geas by using that fact. The caster said "Please accept this blessing" and the characters did. The same should be said helpfull spells.

Another way to think of it is the cure spells. Most characters (minus the Forsakers) don't make a will save for half. They could. Most undead it is cast on do try to make the save. They don't have to (suicidal).