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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kigmatzomat" data-source="post: 638900" data-attributes="member: 9254">From the SRD on shadow conjurations Shadow conjurations are actually  X% as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength.All those that interact with the conjured object, force, or creature can make Will saves to recognize its shadowy nature. Those who succeed do so.Attack spells, such as flame arrow, have normal effects unless those affected succeed at Will saves. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is X% as strong (if applicable) or only X% likely to occur. Mimicked spells allow the normal saves and SR.and on shadow evocationRegardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, affected creatures are also allowed any save the spell being simulated allows, but set the save DC according to shadow magic’s level rather than the spell’s normal level. Nondamaging effects (such as web’s ensnarement) have no effect when the shadow magic is recognized as mostly illusory.So Ian the 12th level Illusionist uses Shades, a 6th level shadow conjuration spell with 60% reality to create a flame arrow's flaming bolt.  After Ian makes his ranged touch attacks, the targets make a will save against the illusion at DC:10+Ian's Int+6 (shades' level).  If they fail they start at full damage (4d6/bolt) and then make the reflex save at DC 10+ian's int+3 (flame arrow level) for half that.  If they make the will save they are at 40% damage where they then make the reflex save to cut that in half (down to 20% damage).  If Ian used the "flaming missle" version of flame arrow that gets no reflex save, the targets would make the same will save to see if they took the full 10pts of fire damage or only 4ptsIan uses Shades to Summon a viper.  The target makes the same will save.  If he fails, every time the viper's bite attack works they have to make the Fort save vs. the poison or it has full effect.  If they make the will save, the poision will only work 40% of the time.  (alternately it will only be at 40% strength; this is up to GMs to decide)Ian uses 5th level Shadow Evocation to cast a fireball.  They make a will save vs 10+ian's int + 5.  Success means they are only threatened by 20% of the 10d6 fireball.  Fail and they can take the full 10d6.  Regardless, they then get the Reflex save for half damage, but this save is at 10+ian's int+5 based on the shadow evocation level rather than the spell mimicked. This is different that shadow conjurations.  The only real "ruling" you have to make is how to handle the 40% effect/40% of the time question.  Personally, anything that is all or nothing or a non-variable effect (e.g. -1 level) works 40% of the time.  After that it gets a bit, er, shadowy.  -James McP</blockquote>

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