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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dandu" data-source="post: 5530710" data-attributes="member: 85158">Okay... but you were talking about how an Arcane Trickster was stronger than a straight wizard. I'm just trying to figure out how. I assumed you were talking in terms of power, so I pursued that venue first.Shall I get off your lawn?Seriously, you think Sorcerers are broken? They're considered weaker than wizards by a measurable amount my optimizers including myself, and I play them constantly. Cha as a casting stat instead of a Int (which grants skill points) or Wis (will saves), slower learning of spells, only a slight advantage in spells per day compared to a specialist wizard, inflexible spell list which means if you choose the wrong spell (Fireball comes to mind) you're stuck with it for a while, no class features except a familiar...We have been over this before. A standard Arcane Trickster are not broken. it is decidedly less powerful than a straight wizard, which can be broken if you play it right, but is not inherently broken either. You trade spellcasting power for some more skill points and a piddling amount of sneak attack. This is underwhelming from a power perspective and will not cause monsters to spontaneously die at your feet, nor does it allow you to do EVERYTHING AT NO COST, for there is a cost. You've lost 3 caster levels by taking levels in Rogue, and you've lost out on a lot of skill points by going into Wizard and even Arcane Trickster. You missed the point. Allow me to say it clearly: You are using extra power to compensate for weaknesses incurred. This acknowledges that there is a weakness in your build regarding spellcasting power. You brought yourself closer to the power a straight wizard had, though you're still not there as you only cast 2 ninth level spells per day compared to a straight wizard's 7. That's a large discrepancy!You don't have a 50/50 chance. Granted, some of that might be due to me being a highly experienced charop veteran, but still, 5 ninth level spells (and a few 8ths) is very big deal.1. Your arcane trickster won't be of much use either. Low BaB results in irrelevant melee capabilities while your HP is still going to be very low. Can't really use magical weapons or armor in an AMF either, which I hear is important for people who want to hit things with sharp objects and not get hit back.2. Dead Magic Zones are, as far as I know, a Faerun thing. Not really present in most non-Faerun games. I think bringing in such a situational thing is unfair. It would be rather like me mentioning that Sneak Attack is useless against a wide variety of high level enemies  (undead, constructs, plants, oozes, elementals, very large creatures  whose vitals are out of reach, concealed enemies...Except running across those enemies is a bit more common than running into Dead Magic Zones, so maybe that is fair to bring up.3. When an antimagic field comes up, it's only a 10ft emanation that has to be centered on the caster. Quite frankly, it's not hard to keep your distance from the enemy and Gate in something nasty, or lob in a few spells that don't care about AMFs. (The most immediate example is Orb of Fire, but you can also Gate in something nasty.)Wait a moment. I seem to remember the Hide skill only working if cover was around, and even then only if the enemy does not have Mindsight, Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesense, Scent, or other extraordinary sensory mechanisms. Isn't this a problem for the Arcane Trickster who tries to hide, since by the time True Seeing comes into play enemies will have these extraordinary senses?A valid point; while there are spells for this, a wizard can't do it without spells. On the other hand, you are taking into account that when spells are required the wizard was doing it 3 levels ahead of you?But let's give this one to you.Wizards do get crossbow proficiency.Hell, the wizard I linked to above has longbow proficiency from being an elf, huge strength and dexterity scores from being a Balor. Just hand him a bow with some arrows and he's good to go.Are you arguing that a wizard cannot <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm" target="_blank">locate an object</a>? Wand of Open Lock or Shatter. Or, you know, Shapechange into something that can do it. Shapechange is useful that way.Again, I'd hardly call being 3 levels behind as good.And as long as we're on skills, Battlemagic Perception and a Ring of Greater Counterspells still work against Conceal Spellcasting and False Theurgy since they don't require identification.Honestly, the only area I consider an Arcane Trickster superior in is certain skills and the ability to find traps. He can do it constantly without using up spellslots. His skills make him versatile, but it's certainly not going to give enough an advantage to make the Arcane Trickster B-R-O-K-E-N. Arcane Tricksters are fun and useful, but not overpowering. <a href="http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860242/Arcane_Trickster_Help?pg=1" target="_blank">Seriously.</a>Well, the complete phrase is "He who rolls highest initiative and has relevant firepower."You claim that just having two 9th level spells is good enough. Alright, I'll bite. How is it good enough? What spells are you going to prep in those slots and how will they ensure your victory?Er... no, not really. 8th level spells don't approach the power of Shapechange, Gate, or Time Stop.I have opinions about the balance of 3.5 that you do not believe in. You have opinions on 3.5 I don't believe in. However, my opinions have the benefit of being shared by the 3.5 character optimization community, ie the people who break the game for fun. These are the people who created Pun Pun, and I they consider an Arcane Trickster to be on the weak side as far as absolute power is concerned. (<a href="http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7286&view=next" target="_blank">No, really.</a>)I'm just trying to expose you to different viewpoints than your own. To be frank, the paradigm shifted from 2e to 3.5e, and I don't think you realized it. Fireball is no longer king and battlefield control took the throne. Casting was given too much power and mundane abilities like swordplay and skills lost out. Clerics fight as good as fighters while still getting spells, Druids have about the same impact on the battlefield as a tornado, and arcane magic can do pretty much anything.Also when you build your Dex 32 character, what will the rest of him look like? How much Con will there be for HP, or Int for spells? Cha to talk and persuade people? Let's take a look at the bigger picture and see what it's like.Well, since you asked,1. It loses 3 caster levels on both sides. You're casting 2nd level spells when the game expects you to be using 3rds. Depending on your DM, this might be acceptable, underpowered, or result in a TPK as 3rd level spells do things that 2nd level ones just can't accomplish. (Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud, hell, Fireball.)2. You have to now have high Int and Wis for spellcasting. You can't cast arcane spells in armor so you better keep your Dex up, and your HP isn't too high so you'll need good Con. That's... 4 stats to increase?3. You only get to cast one spell per round without Quicken, so you're not really getting your magic out the gate any faster than normal. You end up lagging behind in power in exchange for more spells per day. It's not an especially powerful combination. <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151239" target="_blank">It really isn't.</a>Hm. Of the DMG prestige classes:Arcane Archer is considered really weak compared to the intended entry classArcane Trickster is considered less powerfulArchmage is considered equalAssassin is considered a bit betterBlackguard is considered betterDragon Disciple is considered a little weakerDuelist is really weakDwarven Defender is worseEldritch Knight is considered equalHierophant is worseHorizon Walker is betterLoremaster is a bit more powerfulMystic Theurge is worseRed Wizard is much betterShadowdancer is worseThaumaturge is betterAll in all, a bit of a mixed group with 8 worse, 5 better, and 3 equal. Going numerically, I'd say most PrCs in core are... worse than the base classes you use to enter into them, from a power perspective. (It doesn't help that some core classes, like monks, are just really weak and easy to overpower.)<a href="http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0" target="_blank">But don't take my word for it.</a></blockquote>

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