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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dandu" data-source="post: 5532263" data-attributes="member: 85158">Why, if we're allowing the AT levels in Unseen Seer, am I allowed to use non-core wizard ACFs and feats to dramatically boost a wizard's power?So you never had to cast when threatened by an enemy, or under difficult environmental conditions? Good for you. However, since these situations *do* come up, you see why spellcasters need to invest in it.So your AT has high Int and high Dex? Interesting. You seem to have the highest ability score necessary at any time to best support your argument. Quite frankly, I see this as a result of having more skill points than a wizard (combined with a wizard played to less than the full potential), and having enough spell power to not be inferior to a Rogue.Having a variety of options makes a character versatile, but not broken. And as has been *repeatedly* pointed out to you before, losing three caster levels is not "near perfect" wizard progression, nor is losing 4 skill points "near perfect" rogue progression. Let me just ask you: If the Arcane Trickster is as broken as you claim, how come the character optimization boards, which have come up with innumerable truly broken builds, consider it underwhelming? Your first response will probably be that they are too focused on the numbers and not on the roleplaying, but many such as JaronK favor skill heavy characters in his real life games and yet still shares my opinion.Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesight, Mindsight, Scent... this has all been covered before.Let's see... at most, you get 23 ranks in Hide. Assuming a 16 in Dex (gotta have a good Int score, after all) pumped with the 5 stat points from levels, a +5 tome and a +6 item, that gets you a score of 32, which is a modifier of +11. Toss in and Robe of Blending or Ring of the Chameleon, plus another +2 from misc sources and you get a total result of 46.Of course, the Balor isn't using any items; even a simple Eyes of the Eagle, which grant +5 to spot, will give him a score of +43...So when the wizard trues to transmute himself, he has to face opponents with True Seeing, who will pierce his disguise. When the AT does it...The AT does get better skills, but when it comes to spying, the Wizard will Divination spells for that before the AT. As for diversion, I'm pretty sure that there are some good spells for that too. Summons do come to mind.Also, I'm still not convinced it's that good at trespassing and infiltration considering the difficulty in fooling Blindsense, Blindsight, etc...... Which the wizard is... incapable of doing? Contact Other Plane+Scry+Time Stop+Teleport+Shenanagans is not going to be able to destroy an enemy in his sleep and take over his dominion?On the flip side, the AT is not as adaptable to a great variety of encounters that *do* require spellcasting.Think of the whole picture here.Well, when playing the wizard I linked to above, I really felt that he was broken with all the great options available to him. Stopping Time, 8.33 hours of Shapechange, 8.33 hours of immunity to surprises and being flatfooted, the ability to turn one form of matter into any other, invert gravity, summon monsters capable of wiping out entire armies, possess bodies...Are you the one who is kidding me?I find it somewhat presumptuous of you to assume knowledge of how I  learned to play the game. I never really read the sections in the PHB on  how to roleplay, nor, come to think of it, did most of my first group. We figured it out by ourselves.I hear GURPS is rather like that, and people who play GURPS are, to my knowledge, no less roleplayers than those of other kinds.I must apologize; the roleplaying aspect of me does not come across much in a discussion of the rules. If you would wish to discuss roleplaying, please create a thread for it and I will gladly contribute.We do seem to be in a rules forum, so forgive me for talking about the rules.Anyways, I have seen you say that the AT is more "powerful" because he has more options. Yes, I agree that the AT has options a wizard does not, in skills. And it is also true that a wizard has options the AT does not, in spells. Skills are useful, but 9th level spells pack quite a lot of power. The situation is not quite as one sided as you believe.I would not argue that people are not shaped by society, but there is so much more to the society of D&D than just what is in the rules books. There are actors who play, and bring in skills they learned on stage. There are Renaissance Fair people who pretend to be knights for a hobby. There are roleplayers from many different systems, from freeform (no rules at all) to Exalted, Vampire, Paranoia...It's not just the books.I actually do play lots of videogames in addition to tabletop RPGs. I do find them rather entertaining.Then may I suggest that you do not claim to have statistics on your side? Making such claims without the evidence to back it up is not a good idea. I admit, I am rather narrowminded at times, and for that I apologize. I realize that doggedly clinging to my beliefs despite logically sound arguments must make me look very stubborn and foolish. I shall make a note not to hang on to my beliefs when someone presents me with proper evidence that my position is incorrect. Thank you for teaching me this lesson in being openminded.</blockquote>

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