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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jimlock" data-source="post: 5533318" data-attributes="member: 6674931">???You are beginning to not make sense...Ever since this debate started, i'm arguing how non-core sources are broken, how PrCs are broken, and how all this affects the core-only classes by rendering them weak in comparison.You never complained about Skill Tricks (found in Complete Scoundrel), about the Practiced Spell caster Feat (Found in Complete MAge... or Complete Arcane.. don't remember)... and now you complain about me referencing yet another PrC in one of the books i've already used in my arguments?You see... any stupid player who wants to break the game by creating a super powerful character to satisfy his ego, does not have any false sense of moral so as to not use everything out there to attain his goal. He is certainly not gonna stick to what is in the DMG..And please do not come up with an answer like "This was a Wizard Vs AT thing only" cause this war is in your head only. It's been quite a few posts that I'm trying to say something else here.If you feel like you have to dip a straight PHB Wizard into non-core so as antagonize efficiently a non-core character, this only proves how broken non core-books really are. Even more it proves the target-group these products are targeting.I used the AT as an "example" for i've had a recent experience with it. I could have made my life a lot easier by arguing over some other core PrC that gives full spell progression and does not require levels in a non spellcasting class (The Red Wizard does spring to mind), or  a non-core PrC (Mater Specialist springs to mind... among other) that is equally broken. But lets keep the AT shall we?..What a waste of sarcasm... really. Perhaps you should check the skills tricks i posted earlier... oh wait here is one of them right here...ConCeal sPellCasTIng [ManIPulaTIon]You can cast spells without others noticing . Prerequisite: Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank . Benefit: You can cast a spell without revealing that youare doing so . Make a Sleight of Hand check as part of the action used to cast the spell, opposed by the Spot checks of onlookers . If you are successful, an observer can’t tell that you’re casting a spell . That observer cannot make an attack of opportunity against you for casting, nor can it attempt to counter your spell And yes, it is quite rare that i have to cast spells in the heart of a hurricane.???When did i use ability score numbers to support my arguments?? Its you that's been talking about your 32s and your 16s all along.And forgive me for tricking you by assuming that an average AT, a PrC based on a Rogue (a DEX based class) and a Wizard (INT based class),is only normal to focus on those two abilities out of the six every character has.What IS interesting though, is that you always seem to have the right spell in your spellbook, or even memorized!...to counter an AT's non spellcasting "advantages", that an AT always has "on" him. Forgive me for not kneeling before the Holy Inquisition of RPGs, but i consider such boards nothing more than a "waste of time".And yes, they do value numbers over RP.In fact, when people get addicted to creating those builds, they tend to forget not only RP, but also the innumerable complications stories tend to have. In a good story, there are politics... intrigue... fighting, machinations, war, even romance... etc. etc. You mix these up correctly with character choice and the results are infinite.What i'm trying to say is that, when called to judge whether something is broken, one has to take into account that a character will be involved in a great number of encounters and situations that are very different between them... and that he will not always be "packed" with the right tools so as to deal with the obstacles before him.Therefore, versatility equals power.You probably disagree, but me, among other players i know, think very highly of the Rogue. The Rogue, in a story that respects itself (Not some... "There is a prize for the one to slay the goblins in the cave") tends to blossom. He dominates the skills table, he can fight without making a fool of himself, and by combining the very skills given to him, he can spy, infiltrate, impersonate, lie, act, convince... he is very versatile as he is, even without magic.The straight Wizard, while being a brilliant class, is one that in order to deal with something and be effective about it, he requires at least some preparation. There is absolutely no doubt, that when a wizard is adequately prepared, there are no obstacles to hamper his way. If you have to face a Wizard prepared for you, all you can do is pray that it will be short and painless...On the other hand, while there are great spell for almost anything, a campaign that respects itself does not have "spells on sale!" in every store across town. Rarity of magic, is a thing that, even thouh it varies from game to game, is often abused. Ever since 1e books it has been clearly stated that a wizard should not find it easy to obtain his spells, for there are very few people on each world to wield such powers.People who accuse wizards for being broken, tend to forget this very important factor.D&D is not meant to be "oblivion"  or some MMORPG.Taking all the above into account, one has to consider a few other things as well.Spells do run out. A second wave of enemies or continuous encounters can prove very problematic to a wizard and martial classes, including the rogue, behave better when this happens.Its not only in Faerun that characters can find themselves in areas where magic is negated. Even more, there are many areas across a multitude of settings where certain schools of magic do not function at all, or function problematically. As a player, i have found myself quite often in situations like this. it is my understanding that most DMs, including myself employ such techniques so as to keep their game challenging, even for high level spell casters. Not only is it a matter of balance, it is logical as well, for many great villains and personalities across a world are smart enough to protect themselves in a number of ways, including protection from magic. The AT i used to play was once caught by the elves of Vesve Forest (GreyHawk) and was thrown into a cell with Antimagic Field. The roguish side of the AT is what made my escape possible.If "near perfect" is not your thing, i think I have every right to say: that an AT comes with a "very good" Wizard progression, and a "very good" Rogue progression as well.So when you blend those two awesome classes together into one, while giving so much from both sides, you have a character who is capable of reacting without preparation or thought in a bigger number of situations than he should. A straight Rogue and a straight Wizard are more prone to backtracking from a given situation so as to "think things over". And this is what keeps a game challenging and fun. This is what keeps the characters creative. This is the point of a game.With all the above in mind, i conclude that the AT is broken.Now if we were to put a Wizard and an AT on top of two separate mountains, severed by a great valley upon which two mighty armies clash, and have the two spellcasters wage war against one another... while the skies flash with thunder...well its clear to me that chances are with the wizard... but this is not the average day of a character... would you agree? (still... up close...it's a 50% chance...initiative will tell<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />)????Wow you are really having a hard time to see my points..While they are both equally helpless under True Seeing when using transmutations,  when True Seeing is not an obstacle the wizard is inferior in this game.The wizards rolls his poor disguise +10, while the AT rolls his great disguise powered by a couple of skill tricks +10.Don't forget that when body mass is not an obstacle, the AT rolls only with his Disguise skill, thus being undetectable by True Seeing as well.Superior Invisibility combined with Hide = completely undetectable. The wizard is always subject to True Seeing (due to lack of Hide).ohhh right, and claiming that you are "so well educated on RP" that you don't get influenced on how or how much you role-play by the books, the very system you play is not presumptuous?... if not a joke?As far as i know... Rules-lawyers and Minmaxers are quite the opposite of good RPs... Your are a pretty good Rules-Lawyer, and a Minmaxer as you claim...I would have gladly tried to believe, that you are a good RP except... you are not convincing whatsoever.Every line... hell every word you've written so far did not hint ONCE some passion or love for RP and storytelling.All i see is someone anxious whether his wizard will win on the top of his mountain...D&D Legacy DiscussionThis forum is for pre-4E D&D Rules questions, discussion, house rules and fan creationsDoes "discussion" prohibit talk on RP?, storytelling? the evolution of a game? My english can't be that bad...Ohh.. there are plenty of threads under "D&D Legacy Discussion" that are non rule-ishhey... Try this one out...share your 50 cents...<a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=304557" target="_blank">Pathfinder New DM looking for advice... - EN World: Your Daily RPG Magazine</a>With your 3000+ posts you should know, that in forums topics often change... and off-topic talk can sometimes prove to be even more in-topic than the topic itself... have a little faith!!If you don't want to talk about certain stuff you should say so... don't hide behind your finger...please.Ohhh... come on Dandu don't be such a wise-a*sAll i ever argued, was that i observe the evolution of a game through the gaming community around me.  The word "statistics" was used, perhaps poorly i admit, in order to portray this "observation". Statistics come with numbers, and as far as i remember i didn't give any. But i'm sure you know all that... you are just talking the talk... ...you are welcome..<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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