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<blockquote data-quote="AIM-54" data-source="post: 1514485" data-attributes="member: 15633">Now, the healer/cleric unit is much different between the two proposals.&nbsp; It reflects a differing philosophy, whereby Mik puts priority on stealth skills, whereas I chose to sacrifice high abilities there, in return for more spellcasting abilities and a more robust unit capable of fighting if it comes to that.&nbsp; But, to the analysis!MenderStr -&nbsp;&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; -1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Dex - 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Con -&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Int -&nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wis - 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cha - 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +2ClericStr: 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; Dex: 12&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; Con: 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; Int: 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; Wis: 15&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Cha: 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Not much can be done with this, for the most part, because the Mender unit is two attribute points lower than it should be.&nbsp; This template gives you 72 points to work with, while Mik has used only 70.&nbsp; Apparently, we really suck at math.&nbsp; That said, I have also, inexplicably, violated my efficiency rule, apparently so that the cleric will be able to cast spells from a higher level.&nbsp; Given the weaknesses in the template, I have now decided that was stupid and would, therefore, take the point from Wisdom and put it into Intelligence, as the cleric is short on the Skill Points, anyway.Feats:MenderTrackDodgeMobilityClericImproved TurningImproved Shield BashRapid ReloadThis is interesting, as it shows two completely different philosophies.&nbsp; The Mender relies on speed and dexterity to avoid damage via its feats, whereas the Cleric has a more offensive purpose, with the shield present for avoiding damage.&nbsp; Improved Turning just makes sense, given the significant presence of undead in the scenario.&nbsp; The other two ensure that the Cleric remains capable of engaging in battle should it come down to that. Skills:Mender&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ranks/Skill PointsDisguise +3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/2Hide +6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5/5Knowledge: Nature +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1Knowledge: Religion +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1Listen +5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1Move Silently +6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5/5Search +3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1Spot +8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4/4Survival +6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4/4Tumble +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1Diplomacy +5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4/4Heal +10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8/8=37 Skill Points.&nbsp; Now to maximize Skill Points, we’ll say they take Ranger as their first level: (6+1)*4+3+3=34 Skill Points.&nbsp; Which means, we’re three over here.&nbsp; Also, I believe Heal cannot be at 8 ranks, because the overall level is still only third and the rules state it’s your level +4=Rank maximum, in this case 7.&nbsp; If there’s a House Rule about this, I may have forgotten it…my current character has so few skill points it’s a non-issue.Cleric&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ranks/Skill PointsBluff+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/2Diplomacy+3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2/2Gather Information+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1Heal+4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2/2Hide+3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2/4Move Silently+3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2/4Survival+3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/1=16 Skill Points.&nbsp; As a 3rd level cleric:&nbsp; (2*4)+4+3+3=18.&nbsp; Once again, poor math skills strike!&nbsp; I’d throw the two extra points, both into Heal or into Hide or Move Silently.&nbsp; But with the changes I indicated above: (2+1)*4+4+4+4=22 Skill Points.&nbsp; And the Cleric becomes a little more flexible.&nbsp; The main reason for the third level of cleric is the extra spells.&nbsp; I think those become a more valuable asset than another few points in the skills department.I’ll also take this moment to say I like the heavier armor and shield idea simply for the picture of the cleric caring for wounded while taking cover behind the shield.&nbsp; Heh.Basically we’ve got two different philosophies (math errors aside), the cleric with more hefty spellcasting, but less stealth and the Ranger/Cleric.&nbsp; Pretty much comes down to what you’re looking for.&nbsp; My revised cleric will be a little better in the stealth department, as well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AIM-54, post: 1514485, member: 15633"] Now, the healer/cleric unit is much different between the two proposals. It reflects a differing philosophy, whereby Mik puts priority on stealth skills, whereas I chose to sacrifice high abilities there, in return for more spellcasting abilities and a more robust unit capable of fighting if it comes to that. But, to the analysis! Mender Str - 8 -1 Dex - 13 +1 Con - 8 -1 Int - 12 +1 Wis - 15 +2 Cha - 14 +2 Cleric Str: 12 +1 Dex: 12 +1 Con: 10 0 Int: 11 0 Wis: 15 +2 Cha: 12 +1 Not much can be done with this, for the most part, because the Mender unit is two attribute points lower than it should be. This template gives you 72 points to work with, while Mik has used only 70. Apparently, we really suck at math. That said, I have also, inexplicably, violated my efficiency rule, apparently so that the cleric will be able to cast spells from a higher level. Given the weaknesses in the template, I have now decided that was stupid and would, therefore, take the point from Wisdom and put it into Intelligence, as the cleric is short on the Skill Points, anyway. Feats: Mender Track Dodge Mobility Cleric Improved Turning Improved Shield Bash Rapid Reload This is interesting, as it shows two completely different philosophies. The Mender relies on speed and dexterity to avoid damage via its feats, whereas the Cleric has a more offensive purpose, with the shield present for avoiding damage. Improved Turning just makes sense, given the significant presence of undead in the scenario. The other two ensure that the Cleric remains capable of engaging in battle should it come down to that. Skills: Mender Ranks/Skill Points Disguise +3 1/2 Hide +6 5/5 Knowledge: Nature +2 1/1 Knowledge: Religion +2 1/1 Listen +5 1/1 Move Silently +6 5/5 Search +3 1/1 Spot +8 4/4 Survival +6 4/4 Tumble +2 1/1 Diplomacy +5 4/4 Heal +10 8/8 =37 Skill Points. Now to maximize Skill Points, we’ll say they take Ranger as their first level: (6+1)*4+3+3=34 Skill Points. Which means, we’re three over here. Also, I believe Heal cannot be at 8 ranks, because the overall level is still only third and the rules state it’s your level +4=Rank maximum, in this case 7. If there’s a House Rule about this, I may have forgotten it…my current character has so few skill points it’s a non-issue. Cleric Ranks/Skill Points Bluff+2 1/2 Diplomacy+3 2/2 Gather Information+2 1/1 Heal+4 2/2 Hide+3 2/4 Move Silently+3 2/4 Survival+3 1/1 =16 Skill Points. As a 3rd level cleric: (2*4)+4+3+3=18. Once again, poor math skills strike! I’d throw the two extra points, both into Heal or into Hide or Move Silently. But with the changes I indicated above: (2+1)*4+4+4+4=22 Skill Points. And the Cleric becomes a little more flexible. The main reason for the third level of cleric is the extra spells. I think those become a more valuable asset than another few points in the skills department. I’ll also take this moment to say I like the heavier armor and shield idea simply for the picture of the cleric caring for wounded while taking cover behind the shield. Heh. Basically we’ve got two different philosophies (math errors aside), the cleric with more hefty spellcasting, but less stealth and the Ranger/Cleric. Pretty much comes down to what you’re looking for. My revised cleric will be a little better in the stealth department, as well. [/QUOTE]

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