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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N8Ball" data-source="post: 4636398" data-attributes="member: 63757">Fist, I'd like to second Vege's sentiment and say thanks for such a thorough explanation of your point of view.I think this is where our trouble starts.  I don't think Daze is one of those effects that "happen" (like ongoing damage)  but rather it's an effect that's either "in effect" or it's not.  Our group used condition cards that the DM hands out when you get smacked with a slow or immobilize or whatever, so as long as that card is face up in front of my character it's "in effect" and as soon as I save against it I flip it over (if I'll need the card again soon <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f621.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":mad:" title="Mad    :mad:"  data-smilie="4"data-shortname=":mad:" />) or hand it back to the DM.With the perspective that it's a "lightswitch effect" (that's either "on" or "off") you can see how flipping the switch to "off" (by saving) doesn't really require going backwards in the turn sequence.  I agree that going back would be incorrect, but I think that suggestion was from a misunderstanding of our position.Save's do occur at the end of your turn, but that's not the only time they *can* occur.  There are plenty of prescedent for that too, and not just a Warlord using this power.  Some monsters have the ability to make a save as soon as they are hit with a power (like the Hobgoblin) effectively allowing them to NEVER suffer the effets of a condition if they make that save.  That would hold even if the effect were caused on their own turn via an immediate or opportunity action by one of the PCs.As several other people have said I think it should be looked at like the slowed or immobilized condition (other "lightswitch" effects) that are no longer detrimental as soon as a save is made.  To put it another way, if Daze "occurs" in act 1, and it hangs around after the save then enemies would still have CA against you after you saved at the end of your turn!!  That's no good at all.  The condition (and effects) must end when the save ends it,... hence "save ends"</blockquote>

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