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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Synicism" data-source="post: 427775" data-attributes="member: 489">Hong said:"Nobody, as far as I know, has shown how a soldier can survive a direct hit with a tank round. Point me to where the hit point model mandates that taking X points of damage must be the result of a direct hit."The thing about a HP system is that an attack either hit or it didn't. If you want to change the model, having a lot of HP lets a character hopscotch through a landmine, fall all his reflex saves for half damage, and still walk away.Hong said:"1) Massive damage Fort save. Natural 1 always fails."Not necessarily. There are a number of variants published for the treatment of ones and 20's. I personally use the -10/30 rule, where a natural one is a -10 and a natural 20 is a 30.So yes, your natural 20 may not always succeed and your natural one may not always fail."Hit points presume a character actively attempting to avoid the worst effects of an attack. Someone who jumps off a mountain in the knowledge that he has lots of hit points is, arguably, not actively attempting to avoid the worst effects of the attack, and therefore the hit point model doesn't apply. Spatula time."Show me where it says that. Granted, that's a nice use of rule zero and it makes perfect sense. But I'm talking about numbers. You can't build a system assuming that players will act a certain way.Hong said: "The jump-off-a-cliff example is awfully, terribly old. It's so old it has hair. If this is the worst aspect of the model you can come up with, that would indicate it's actually doing rather well in the areas it's _supposed_ to model."Hmm... you're right. It is pretty old. Actually, TSR expanded it in the Spelljammer game to deal with reentry.Yes. It is possible for a character to fall from outer space to the ground, hit, and survive, if he has enough hit points. It's right there, in the system.Silly? Sure. However, the fact remains that SOMEONE must play that way. Otherwise the rule wouldn't exist.Hong said:"How is this different to having, say, massive PD and DR in GURPS? Or any other mechanic by which a powerful character can avoid being hit by lesser characters?"Simple. In GURPS, I am either hit or I am not. If someone swings a sword at me and I parry the blow, I didn't get touched. If someone takes a shot at me and I dodge, I didn't get touched.However, should my defenses fail, I have a very few hit points upon which to rely to take the hit. Especially given the damage multipliers that GURPS uses.In "stock" d20, I swing, I hit, I do damage. You swing, you hit, you do damage. Lather, rinse, repeat. Many attacks, many hits, each one whittling away at the combatant's ability to fight.In a GURPS fight, I might have my first ten attacks parried or dodged, only to land with my eleventh, stab my opponent through the chest, and kill him. In a D&D fight, I might have to actually hit him with my sword eleven times before he drops.Big difference in the mind's eye. And that's what rules in a RPG are supposed to do, right? Help us imagine what's going on?</blockquote>

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