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Message: <blockquote data-quote="shoak1" data-source="post: 6926635" data-attributes="member: 54380">You know it gets kind of difficult to wade thru these threads for useful stuff in the midst of all the rhetoric and devolving minutia discussed.  Nonetheless I have done so in a number of these threads, and there is useful info to be gleaned on both sides of the aisle..  Here is a summary of what I have found splashed with my view regarding relevancy:Relevant points for GWM/SS NOT being OP:1)  The Math.  You don't get +10 damage, stop saying that.  When you break down the -25% hit chance, and the comparison w/+1 ASI, you're going to get a moderate boost that will rarely exceed +4 avg.dmg per swing, and will prob.avg. +2 dmg.in the real world of 6-8 CR appropriate encounters per day.2)  Mitigation doesn't change The Math.  Unless you pile on so many buffs that you would hit on negative numbers pre-penalty, the penalty is gonna hit you.  One caveat: SS/archery synergy can attain this level of mitigation and SS is therefore a more real threat of being OP.Relevant points for GWM being OP:1)  Low Hanging Fruit.  Its easy to make a very efficient combo out of GWM.  Too easy.  To be honest, I see having one of them in the party is a must for a well rounded party.2)  It's Boring to not have other good choices.  The feat list sucks when it comes to combat maximization.  Having to have a SS or GWM in every party is not fun - but it really is necessary from a powergaming standpoint.Irrelevant points in no particular order:1)  Combat is only part of the game.  So what?  We are comparing combat feats vs combat stat increases.  Maybe if combat is a minor part of your game you should spend your time in threads like "Linguist - the best feat since Friend to the Elves!"2)  Its only a problem for min-maxers/power gamers.  You're right here.  But admitting you are not a min-maxer disqualifies you from assessing balance issues, since you either don't care much about such issues, or don't seek out exploits.  Either way, any official changes that could come to these feats wouldn't really affect you then, would they?  And who better to balance a combat feat than a min-maxer?3)  Just make the monsters harder.  Silly point.  I shouldn't have to balance the game by changing CR challenges.4)  Its not a problem at my table because of xyz! So what?  The rest of us don't play w/ xyz.5)  Math is subjective! No its not.  If you think it is, go hug Michel Foucault and stay out of analysis threads.6)  You can wipe out the -5 penalty w/a +5 buff to hit!  No, you can't.  You will just be changing the 5 extra numbers you will miss on.7)  GWM is super OP because if I have this one particular combo I rule!!!! Yeah, but then you don't have some other super combo.  And in any case maybe the DM has thought of a super deadly combo...8)  GWM is OP because you get +10 damage, cleave, and BA on crits!!  You don't actually get +10 damage, cleave just helps mitigate the overkill, and BA on crits is a very minor damage boost on average.9)  Overkill mitigates the benefits of GWM.  Nope - that's why they added cleave into it.  Plus, mobs in 5e are big bags of hp, and don't go down quickly to great sword swings when level appropriate.So is GWM/SS OP?  I think SS is, GWM isn't.  But I resent both feats because they make focus be on bows and big weapons.  Bad design.</blockquote>

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