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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mr. Gnome" data-source="post: 739202" data-attributes="member: 10554">Deset Gled,Nah, you're not too late.  Nothing's really set in stone yet, and I can still tweak the class if need be. The reason there are so many feats (5 actually--you counted wrong), is twofold.  One, I based the class somewhat on similar weapon-oriented premade WoTC classes out of Sword & Fist, partly for inspiration, partly for balance.  The classes I looked at were Weapon Master, Order of the Bow Initiate, Master of Chains, Lasher, and Duelist, since they were the classes that most felt like the type of class I wanted.  Other than the lasher, those classes all had lots of feat prereqs (6,5,6,2, and 4, respectively).  And while I disagree with WoTC's choice of making weapon specilization a prereq for two of those (Order of Bow and Master of Chains), I figured that since my class was a similar fighter type, weapon oriented class, having lots of feat prereqs for it probably fit and helped balance things.So, yes, you would have to have at least one level of fighter to take my class before level 9 if you were human (later otherwise).  But, on the other hand, it does help emphasize that this is a fighter-like class--emphasizing feats, and getting lots of abilities to help one weapon, so I figured it was okay.  But I don't think I would necessarily see anything wrong balance-wise with removing a feat.The second reason for all the feats was that if you're planning on being a shield fighter without the benefit of a prestige class, those are the feats you'd take.  You'd want Weapon Focus, since..well..you're focusing on a weapon (duh).  You'd definately need Shield Expert, which allows you to use your shield as a weapon while still using it defensively (the underlying premise of the class as a whole, actually).  And then there's the Power Attack-Improved Shield Bash-Shield Charge feat chain.  I figure this is the pinnacle of shield wielding any character can get to without extra, specialized training and practice (the prestige class).  I actually see it as being very similar to how the Weapon Master requires Whirlwind Attack as a prereq--it's the pinnacle of attacking with one weapon allowed using feats alone.So, yeah, I view the class as being something you're going to need to devote your character to in order to enter, but the results will be worth it.  So unless the character is willing to devote himself to intense study with his weapon (either through a couple of fighter levels, or just a lot of normal levels), he shouldn't be able to get into the class.Of course, I could just drop some of the feats from the prereq. list, and add them to the gained class abilities, but I don't really know about that...  And as for dropping Power Attack, I couldn't do that without dropping both Improved Shield Bash and Shield Charge, since it's a prereq. for that whole chain.  So if anything would be dropped, it'd be the charge ability.As for the skill requirement thing... there really isn't *any* skill that this class relies on.  The only possible requirement I could think of would be craft (armorsmithing), but I want the character to be able to fight with shields, not know how to make them.Gah, that was a lot of words.  Anyhow, on with the show.Again, your counting is a bit off.  They only gain 5 free feats (They don't get Improved Trip, just Knockdown).  But you might very well be right about the class getting too much stuff.Yeah, I guess I'd agree that the twf feats are the most powerful and least related, so if anything should go, it should probably be them.  As far as giving it a good reflex save or more skill points, that's something I wouldn't do.  I don't see this class as being particularily nimble (picture full-plate tin-can warrior who's main saving grace is supreme shield skill), nor do I see it skill oriented (I mean, it's totally a combat oriented class that probably can't tumble, so there isn't much left).As for the hit die decrease...I could do it, but I see the class being very fighter-like toughness-wise.  But if needed for balance reasons, I'd consider it.Yeah, upon reflection, I do think that the 2 weapon feats are probably not necessary, and are some of the more powerful abilities granted by the class.As far as the 5-level-range idea, my main problem with that version is that you have the potential to get a whole bunch of good abilities in a very short span, and thus probably has to be balanced with a high (probably +8 to +10) BAB requirement.  A class like this is probably more interesting play-wise if you can start taking it at, say, sixth level, and just gain the abilities over a more spread out period of time.  Plus with your version you get all the best abilities of my class condensed even more, so you're gaining that much more ability-wise for your dollar--as opposed to a fighter--than you would with the spread out version. On the other hand, your version does allow you to just spend a relatively small (as compared to the 10 level version) part of your adventuring career becoming el-shield-master-supremo, freeing up the rest for gaining expertise in your less-ability-driven-more-flavor-driven classes, such as ranger or holy liberator or he-who-smiteth-his-enemies-with-great-predjudice-in-a-cool-background-oriented-way-class.And honestly, the five level would help out my current character a lot more since he's already level 11, but I'm trying to make this class balanced so similar characters would want to take it, not necessarily for my own character's benefit.As far as your new ability names, I do think I will adopt them, though.  I just sort of spewed whatever names came to mind when I wrote the class, caring more about what the abilities did than what they were called.  Although I have to admit in retrospect that the names weren't too bad. Now that I see it, I'm going to adopt at least some of the wording of that feat.  Especially the "must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed," since that is what I intended anyway.</blockquote>

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