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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Grog" data-source="post: 921036" data-attributes="member: 6183">And I guess they never lose fights in yours.Like I said, there's a big difference between running in, seeing a wizard, and running away, and running away after several rounds of battle with said wizard. In the first case, the wizard has no reason not to chase them. In the second case, the wizard may have been damaged, may have used up a lot of spells, etc., so giving chase might not be the best idea.Most modules I've seen include a method for monsters to find out that the PCs are invading their home (alarms and such). It is possible for the PCs to avoid setting off the alarm, but no group is going to be able to do that forever. I can't remember the last module I read that had monsters just sitting in separate rooms doing nothing while the PCs were fighting in the next room.Wizards also aren't proficient with longbows, so you had to burn another feat to become so. And if you don't want a -4 penalty to hit for shooting into meele, you need Precise Shot as well. So that's 3 or 4 feats.With those same 3 or 4 feats, I could take Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Empower Spell, etc. I could also take item creation feats and have a lot more magic items than you. In short, I could be a very effective wizard, instead of a somewhat effective wizard and a poor man's archer.Of course, since my wizard has been casting spells and yours has been shooting arrows, we have a much better chance of making it to that 5th combat of the day. Do you really expect to be fighting goblins at 12th level?Let's take a closer look at this wizard archer of yours. +6 BAB, poly into an 18 Dex form, we'll give you a good roll on your Cat's grace, 22 Dex for a +6, +4 bow and arrows from GMW means you're +20 to hit with the bow, +18 when rapid shotting.A cloud giant (CR 11) has a 21 AC. When the party fighter is in meele with it, you're at +14/+14/+9, assuming you didn't take Precise Shot (if you did, you would have spent fully half your feats on archery). On average, that will give you 1.85 hits per round. You're doing 1d8+8 damage, or 12.5 damage on average. 23 damage total, on average. The cloud giant has 178 hit points.Meanwhile, my wizard casts Hold Monster on it. He has a 24 Int (17 starting, +3 level increases, +4 item), so the save DC is 22. A cloud giant has a +6 Will save. He needs to roll a 16 or better to save. My wizard has a 75% chance of ending the fight in the first round.Yeah, I know which I'll take.Let's say we're up against 3 frost giants (EL 12). First round, no one's in meele, so you have a +18/+18/+13 against their 21 AC. You get 2.45 hits with your bow, on average, doing 12.5 damage per shot, about 31 damage on average, to one of the giants. They have 133 HP each.On the other hand, my wizard throws a fireball at them. 10d6 damage. His DC is 24 (with Greater Spell Focus Evocation, which he can take since he hasn't been taking archery feats), so the giants (+3 Reflex save) need a natural 20 to save. That's 35 damage on average. Since frost giants are cold subtype, they take double damage unless they manage to make their save (since they need a natural 20, it's not likely), so all three giants take 70 damage.70 damage to three frost giants vs. 31 damage to one frost giant. The choice is obvious.I could easily say the same thing to you. Since we're both talking about anecdotal evidence, we'll just have to agree to disagree here.</blockquote>

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