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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 921219" data-attributes="member: 6239">PCs running after a single round of wizard, noticing he is buffed, and after 3 or 4 rounds of dying.&nbsp; A few more AoE spells will kill them off and any smart wizard would do it.&nbsp; If they are dead and running, they won't be able to grab the boddies for later ressurection.&nbsp; Unless the wizard is out of spells, they will pursue for at least a few rounds, at least under your &quot;kill them if they run&quot; concept.If the wizard throws a few spells at them, and they break, I say the wizard would throw more minions at them (less risk to himself).&nbsp; Minions should be able to clear up the intruders if they run after a round of combat with the wizard.&nbsp; Or the wizard would move to a more deffensive position, in case this is a feint or they intend to lead him into a trap.The difference is that your wizard wants to walk into traps and wants to let people get away to harm him again.&nbsp; Mine thinks of tatics.Alarms should be disabled by any sort of smart (long lived) party.&nbsp; What is the listen check through stone?&nbsp; Most modules I have seen become hard to impossible if you provoke the whole dungeon, hence you won't do it.&nbsp; If you do, you die.&nbsp; End of story.So I need Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, and Empower Spell, to be an effective wizard?&nbsp; You have a very narrow defination of what makes a wizard effective.&nbsp; I could get two of those anyway, with my remaining feats.Very nice.&nbsp; You could have added strength from a mighty bow, but it doesn't matter.&nbsp; You have proved you can outpace me in an encounter that you shouldn't have to worry about using powerful spells for.&nbsp; You have also made the rest of the party look like smucks.&nbsp; You also won't be able to do that more than 4 times a day.&nbsp; When you really need that hold monster in the 5th combat, it won't be there.&nbsp; Mine will.I can do my moderate damage consistantly, enough to help out.&nbsp; The fighters also get a workout, outdamaging me.&nbsp; 4 spells and 3 feats is a small price to pay to be a decent archer all day.Play 6 or 7 encounters out and see which wizard is still going.&nbsp; I never said I was better in the short run.I have statitistics on my side, you have fear.&nbsp; Probablility says, given all the posibilities, it will be several encounters time before a permanent spell is dispelled.&nbsp; Fear says it could go down next encounter.In some campaigns, you can't buy magic items.&nbsp; Permancy is available.&nbsp; Some campaigns have less money, permancy costs no money.&nbsp; Some campaigns give little time for creating items, permancy is fast.If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine.&nbsp; I didn't say it was anything more than my opinion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 921219, member: 6239"] PCs running after a single round of wizard, noticing he is buffed, and after 3 or 4 rounds of dying. A few more AoE spells will kill them off and any smart wizard would do it. If they are dead and running, they won't be able to grab the boddies for later ressurection. Unless the wizard is out of spells, they will pursue for at least a few rounds, at least under your "kill them if they run" concept. If the wizard throws a few spells at them, and they break, I say the wizard would throw more minions at them (less risk to himself). Minions should be able to clear up the intruders if they run after a round of combat with the wizard. Or the wizard would move to a more deffensive position, in case this is a feint or they intend to lead him into a trap. The difference is that your wizard wants to walk into traps and wants to let people get away to harm him again. Mine thinks of tatics. Alarms should be disabled by any sort of smart (long lived) party. What is the listen check through stone? Most modules I have seen become hard to impossible if you provoke the whole dungeon, hence you won't do it. If you do, you die. End of story. So I need Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, and Empower Spell, to be an effective wizard? You have a very narrow defination of what makes a wizard effective. I could get two of those anyway, with my remaining feats. Very nice. You could have added strength from a mighty bow, but it doesn't matter. You have proved you can outpace me in an encounter that you shouldn't have to worry about using powerful spells for. You have also made the rest of the party look like smucks. You also won't be able to do that more than 4 times a day. When you really need that hold monster in the 5th combat, it won't be there. Mine will. I can do my moderate damage consistantly, enough to help out. The fighters also get a workout, outdamaging me. 4 spells and 3 feats is a small price to pay to be a decent archer all day. Play 6 or 7 encounters out and see which wizard is still going. I never said I was better in the short run. I have statitistics on my side, you have fear. Probablility says, given all the posibilities, it will be several encounters time before a permanent spell is dispelled. Fear says it could go down next encounter. In some campaigns, you can't buy magic items. Permancy is available. Some campaigns have less money, permancy costs no money. Some campaigns give little time for creating items, permancy is fast. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. I didn't say it was anything more than my opinion. [/QUOTE]

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