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<blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 931192" data-attributes="member: 1757">Now that argument, to my mind, does not make very much sense.A flat +4 isn't really as good as 1d4+1 for an all-day buff, because with an all-day buff, the loss of a single 4th-level slot to Empower it isn't as big a deal as with short-term buffs, where you'll need to use multiple 4th-level slots over multiple encounters to stay buffed. Yet a 4th-level Empowered buff is only worse than a 16,000 gp (+4) item (something which would represent over half the character wealth of an 8th-level PC) 25% of the time, and can be as good or better than a 36,000 gp (+6) item (more than an 8th-level PC can afford at all!) 50% of the time. That's a balance problem in the direction of &quot;overpowered,&quot; not underpowered.If you think that a +4 flat bonus is overpowered, then you're really just admitting that the buff spells are overpowered. As is, you get that now 50% of the time with your 2nd-level spell, and better than that 75% of the time with your Empowered 2nd-level spell.&nbsp; The uncertainty of &quot;only&quot; being able to duplicate or negligibly beat the effect of a 4,000 gp (+2) bonus item 50% of the time represents the worst-case scenario for using the buffs, and is a pretty small price to pay for being able to Empower the darn spells through the roof.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ruleslawyer, post: 931192, member: 1757"] Now that argument, to my mind, does not make very much sense. A flat +4 isn't really as good as 1d4+1 for an all-day buff, because with an all-day buff, the loss of a single 4th-level slot to Empower it isn't as big a deal as with short-term buffs, where you'll need to use multiple 4th-level slots over multiple encounters to stay buffed. Yet a 4th-level Empowered buff is only worse than a 16,000 gp (+4) item (something which would represent [i]over half[/i] the character wealth of an 8th-level PC) 25% of the time, and can be as good or better than a 36,000 gp (+6) item (more than an 8th-level PC can afford at all!) 50% of the time. That's a balance problem in the direction of "overpowered," not underpowered. If you think that a +4 flat bonus is overpowered, then you're really just admitting that the buff spells are overpowered. As is, you get that now 50% of the time with your 2nd-level spell, and better than that 75% of the time with your Empowered 2nd-level spell. The uncertainty of "only" being able to duplicate or negligibly beat the effect of a 4,000 gp (+2) bonus item 50% of the time represents the [i]worst-case[/i] scenario for using the buffs, and is a pretty small price to pay for being able to Empower the darn spells through the roof. [/QUOTE]

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