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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 931326" data-attributes="member: 3146">Nonsense.The entire argument that the buff spells are overpowered rests upon the assertion that they come at no significant cost in terms of spell slots and can be kept up for 24 hours per day. (Attempts to get around this by casting spells the night before is not possible before level 8 and runs into the "Day 0 or Day 1 of the adventure" problems at all levels (and, IME, most adventures are either over on whatever turns out to be day 1 or go for multiple consecutive days)).The empowered buff spells you're talking about are neither free in terms of spell slots nor can they be kept up for all day at 8th level. In order for an 8th level cleric or wizard to keep a single party member in empowered buffs all day, it's necessary for him to spend all of his highest level spell slots (including one for an 18 wisdom or int but excluding specialty and domain slots). It is also necessary for the character to spend a feat on Empower Spell (and it's generally recognized that metamagic spells ought to be able to be superior to other spells of that level; otherwise there would be no point in spending a feat to be able to cast them). That is hardly a "no brainer"; in fact judging from my experience it's pretty much a no-brainer NOT to do so. At 8th level, one empowered stat buff may be a good idea but it's not so dramatically superior as to squeeze out other spells from the spells prepared list. There's nothing inherently "overpowered" about a cleric with one particular spell and a specific feat being able to grant a bonus (25% of the time) that characters could not otherwise afford. This happens all the time with other spells--Divine Power, Shield, Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. The earliest that a single empowered buff spell would be able to be a 24 hour/day spell would be 12th level. And even at 12 level, 5th level slots for Empowered, Extended Buff spells are hardly free. (Note this also requires two metamagic feats which characters ought to be able to benefit from). A cleric or wizard with a mental statbuff item probably has 5th level 4 non-domain/specialty slots and 2 6th level slots (3 if s/he has a +4 statbuff item). Thus empowered, extended buffs represent a very significant opportunity cost for the cleric or wizard. By 12th level, +4 statbuffing items are also very affordable (and are quite noticably cheaper than 5th level pearls of power).By the time it is possible to get consistent +4 bonusses and likely +6 bonusses for 24 hours/day, (also the time that 5th level slots might be losing the sting of their opportunity cost) it is necessary to spend 7th level slots for double empowered, extended spells. By this time, however, antimagic should be quite common on the battlefield and +6 statbuffing items are readily affordable. I don't see any balance problem with allowing characters to spend valuable 7th level spell slots to duplicate the effects of an item they could easily afford.By the time that those 7th level slots begin to lose their opportunity cost and spells that are reliably better than items (triple empowered, (possibly extended too) stat buffs in 8th or 9th level slots) become available, the cost shifts. Even at high levels, 5th, 6th, and 7th level slots are still very valuable (although more for utility spells like Teleport and Teleport w/out error, etc than for combat spells). New opportunity costs to casting the super-empowered statbuffing spells, enter in as well. Each 9th level triple empowered extended statbuff could have been a Foresight, or an Extended Mind Blank, for instance. Each 8th level triple empowered statbuff could have been an extended elemental immunity. And at this time, +6 items (which are equal to even the triple extended statbuff 25% of the time and better another 25%) are a drop in the ocean of money that characters have available to them.In other words, I think that the opportunity cost of empowered statbuffs is always significant enough to prevent them from being overpowered.The reason that I would consider a flat +4 buff at 1 hour/level to be overpowered is twofold.First, at low levels (3-6) the caster is gambling that a 1st level effect will worth the 2nd level slot over the course of a several hour duration. This is something of a gamble. At 4th level and +4, Bull's strength on a fighter outperforms bless in terms of increasing the party's average damage/round only if it lasts through three combats. At sixth level and +4, Bull's Strength only needs to last through two combats to outperform bless. At +2 or +3 and 6th level, however (which are risks under the current system), it would probably still need to last through three or four combats to outperform bless in a single combat. Making the bonus a flat +4 would mean that PCs didn't have to take nearly as much risk when casting the spell at those levels. The power for duration exchange would be much more favorable.Second, at mid-levels (6-10), the second level slots begin to lose their opportunity cost. Relying on Bull's Strength instead of simply buying gauntlets of ogre power or another +2 item (which are eminently affordable by level 8) is a gamble at these levels--exchanging 24 hour duration and non-dispellability for a 50% chance of getting a larger bonus. If the spell were a flat +4 however, the larger bonus would be guaranteed--and, by 10th level, PCs really could have a reliable +4 bonus nearly 24 hours/day at little cost (second and third level slots are a lot more available than 5th level slots which are required for extended empowered versions at the moment).Beyond level 10, the spells would rapidly fade out as +6 statboosting items became increasingly affordable but the flat +4 bonus would have a disproportionate effect on the power of the spells during levels 6-10.</blockquote>

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