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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 931447" data-attributes="member: 3146">A few last points:There are two problems with this analysis:1. The empowered extended bull's strength only grants a +6 bonus 50% of the time; the rest of the time, it grants a +4 bonus.2. Mystic Theurge's don't have ANY 5th level slots until 12th level.3. +4 stat buff items are quite affordable from 10th level on (before 5th level slots are regularly available for empowered extended statbuffs--seriously has any group you've ever played in or DMed for had their primary casters using all their highest level slots on empowered extended stat buffs? In the group I regularly play with, the 11th level cleric won't spend more than one 4th level slot on empowered statbuffs).And all of them other than GMW have a much more dramatic impact on the one or two battles they effect than the statbuffs do. Improved Invisibility, for instance, generally cuts the amount of damage the target receives by 50% or more and, if the target has Expert Tactician and/or sneak attack, dramatically increases his damage output; Empowered Cat's grace can't boast nearly the same influence on a combat. Shield is in the same boat. Flame Strike (what could be in the 5th level extended, empowered buff slot) will deal enough damage in a single shot (assuming only one target but a failed save) that even an empowered bull's strength will need something like 18 rounds of full attacks to catch up in terms of damage dealt. Since that's three to five combats at high levels--maybe more if the fighter doesn't get many rounds of full attacks, even if it lasts through every combat in the day, Empowered Bull's Strength won't do much more than catch up. The point is that at all levels, even empowered versions of the statbuffs are about exchanging big dramatic effects over a short time period for small, incremental effects over a long time period and hoping that the small ones add up. Without a long duration, they never will; even with a long duration, they usually don't add up to much more.If you have 11,500 gp and 920 xp to throw around. . . . Of course, if you have that much gold and xp, you might as well just make a +6 belt of strength; it's only a little bit more. Or you could save both money and xp and make a +4 belt of strength.The probability is 50% for normal statbuffs--the kind which can be extended to last most of the day and still not cause the wizard to say "forget it, I want to cast cone of cold" or the cleric to say "I'm prepping a flame strike instead" (and both of them to be right in their estimation that, not only will that choice enable them to seem to do more in combat, it will be a better choice in terms of the party's ability to deal damage to their opponents)--and  75% for empowered statbuffs. OTOH, empowered statbuffs aren't readily available at 8th level and even at 10th level aren't all day affairs unless extended (which is not usually available and carries a very significant opportunity cost).Really, I think the crux of our disagreement comes down to whether there was anything broken about empowered stat buffs. The long duration seems to primarily concern you when attached to empowered and extended spells.</blockquote>

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