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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5804168" data-attributes="member: 6668292">Okay, say a person has taken HP damage (battered and a little tired). They are cured (Cleric, Warlord, whatever). They lose a healing surge. They are no longer battered and tired.They take another wound, and are battered and a little tired. They are cured. They lose a second healing surge. They are no longer battered and tired.They take a third wound, and, again, are battered and a little tired. They are cured. They lose a second healing surge. They are no longer battered and tired.This happens until they are no longer able to be healed (no more healing surges), at which point, this "battered and tired" condition in the fiction sticks. My question is, why is that?If, on the other hand, it's "they take HP damage, are battered and tired, and then are healed, making them less battered and tired", my question becomes why can magic only makes scrapes a little bit better, and why does a second casting not heal their wound completely?That is, magic will never heal serious wounds (thanks to Schrodinger's wounds there's never a point when a creature is "dying" other than if it eventually dies). Magic will lessen scrapes and bruises. This means that serious wounds cannot occur. Light wounds cannot even be removed. Why is there such a restriction on the fiction?That's what I don't want in 5e. I don't want one way for the fiction to always unfold. I want the game to have the ability to dish out light wounds or serious wounds. I want the story to unfold from that. Low HP dealt (heals overnight): light wound. High HP dealt: serious wound. THP-only dealt: dodged, but slightly winded you.I want the fiction to be absolutely filled with options that can result from standard play. If I'm forced into "magic bandages scrapes and bruises, and no PC can ever truly be dying unless he winds up dead" then I'm going to object to 5e's HP system (just as I do for 4e and 3.Xe, to differing degrees).I want the fiction to make sense in-game, and the relatively flimsy "only light wound occur, unless someone dies, but magic can make light wounds slightly more light, and nothing beyond that even with multiple castings" is going to strain my suspension of disbelief pretty profoundly.But, again, that's me. I have a pretty simulationist viewpoint, and since I look at things from an angle of "how does this ability translate directly into the fiction?", it causes a disconnect from a certain healthy level of hand-waving.Thanks for the reply, but I just can't buy into the healing surge and hit point system as described by you and Kingreaper. I know it's all subjective, so I'm certainly not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't click with me. It screams "this is here for balance, not to model the fiction" to me, where it seems it's not the case to you (or others in this thread). You're not wrong, we just disagree. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />It's a nice alternative for non-magical healing, but I don't like the arbitrary limit on healing. Also, the recovery system (where natural healing takes a six hour rest) is definitely not good for a gritty feel. A poster (I feel very bad for forgetting who at the moment) rightfully pointed out that healing surge recovery rate can be pushed back, which wound indeed slow down recovery time.When I look to fantasy fiction, I like to look at Conan, Song of Ice and Fire, etc.Conan is often knocked unconscious, characters gain permanent wounds, characters take a while to recover (and are often mangled), infection can occur, etc. I'd much prefer this feel to my analysis of the above proposal by TwinBahamut, if we're looking to emulate gritty play.Healing surges are a nice start on non-magical healing, but also have some major issues with it (as of 4e, if you include the rest and recovery and dying mechanics). It could be tweaked, but I still think magic should be an external source, or you wind up with arbitrary healing limits with flimsy reasoning at best (in my opinion... this is not an objective value judgement). As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />This is true, and I want to be able to experience nearly any story. Always healing overnight takes away stories (just as always healing slowly would). Healing being limited by healing surges takes away stories (just as healing without limits does).This extends to long range teleportation, divination, and the like. It's hard to balance, but on the note of healing, the game would be dictating the fiction to me in a very narrow way (as I've described upthread). It's good for one style of play or one viewpoint, but it is not very inclusive, nor is it overwhelmingly popular (even if it is popular).Story and game mechanics should not be enemies, but they should not hold me to a style of game that I don't like. People love 4e because it's so easy to reskin and reflavor, but when it comes to it's "HP works this way, and produces this story in the fiction, or it doesn't make sense"? I'd rather that not be the case. Exactly correct, which is why I'm advocating they separate HP into two pools. I could still see a "second wind" mechanic for restoring THP (the "other" pool), but it wouldn't need to be nearly as prevalent as 4e had it (something closer to Star Wars Saga, from what I can tell).I have this split in my RPG, and characters actually regain THP equal to their Con bonus (not modifier) +1 every round, even in combat. It's a little more bookkeeping than many groups may want, so it could be "does not recover in combat" at base level in 5e. I also have a feat (which takes one-fifth of a level's worth of character points... point-buy game) that allows you to spend a move action to restore THP equal to your Con bonus once per turn. It's even called Second Wind.I'm not opposed to a type of Healing Surge mechanic, but I do not like them as currently implemented. However, I can support there being support for a healing surge-like mechanic in 5e. But I do think there should be a separation in physical and nonphysical wounds. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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