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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5808224" data-attributes="member: 2011">I agree that there is no undefendable attack. Most attacks are usually a series of attacks, footwork, balance, and timing no matter what you are discussing. Your opponent makes a mistake or is not quick enough, and pays the price.But, there are overwhelming attacks. I've seen powerful martial artists (state championship level fighters) through power, speed, and timing, take a foe out with a single kick to the stomach, even though the other foe had protective gear and tried to block the attack. 10 seconds into the fight and it's already over when you kick someone extremely hard in the stomach as they are moving in towards you for an attack.I used to do martial arts and assist at tournaments for years, and I've never seen what you are talking about. Really hurt competitors don't shake it off unless time is called and they actually have time to recover a bit. Get kicked in the hand in martial arts and you might not be able to use that hand for much the rest of the fight (I know because I have cartilage damage in my right hand from blocking a kick in a bout).Summoning the will to fight on when hurt? Sure. But, that's not healing and shaking it off. If that's what you are calling inner strength (inner willpower), I agree with you. Some people can keep coming at you when hurt. But Second Wind models a defensive stance combined with some type of healing or shaking off of damage. That's not the willpower to keep fighting. It allows time for additional fighting by undoing previous damage, but has nothing to do with willpower. In fact, using up a Standard Action with Second Wind means that the PC stops fighting for that moment in time and covers up (which also gets one in trouble in a real fight).Once someone is hurt, they tend to be in a world of trouble in martial arts and they'd be in more trouble with weapons. Real combat isn't like Die Hard. The aggressor almost always wins against a hurt foe. In real life combat, there is no "go to your corner" like boxing and catch your breath. There is no "you cannot attack my hands or my legs" like in the SCA. There is no "you cannot attack the head" or "one side goes to the corner when the other is hurt" like in some martial arts. There is no 10 count like boxing. A hurt foe in martial arts is usually finished. He might get a few lucky blows in and win, but it rarely happens that way. And martial artists are often merely dazed or have the breath knocked out of them. They typically aren't (significantly) cut or have broken bones or a variety of other more serious injuries.And, there is no "I was hurt, but I'm no longer hurt" like with Second Wind in real life. And even boxing covering up in a corner only works defensively because he cannot be attacked below the belt or from other angles.In fact, I've seen the will to keep fighting. One competitor is just plain better than the other, but isn't really good enough or aggressive enough to just end it quickly. The losing competitor keeps coming back for more and more, but just keeps getting nailed and the hurt competitor's attacks and responses get slower and slower until finally the bout is ended, or time runs out.  One sometimes sees this a bit more with women competitors because quite frankly, some women are just plain more stubborn (or tough) than some men. Winning men are often more aggressive and just take their injured foe out when/if they get the chance. You might be confusing this level of willpower to keep going with Second Wind, but that's not what Second Wind does.The injured competitor doesn't get better and start fighting as well as s/he did at first, the injured competitor merely keeps coming back for more and starts attacking uncontrolled with less power and speed, and worse timing and balance.The closest thing we have to no hold bars fighting is mixed martial arts and even it has safety rules. There are rare but occasional deaths in mixed martial arts, something you almost never see in tournament martial arts even though the number of tournament bouts far outnumber the number of mixed martial arts bouts. In mixed martial arts, the competitor who gets hurt almost always loses and unless they are in a grapple on the ground where he might be able to delay, the hurt competitor tends to lose quickly.But, there are many unrealistic elements to D&D combat, Second Wind is no different. For one thing, smart opponents would take a heavily armored foe to the ground as fast as they can and keep him there. A fighter with two similarly skilled foes on him is in serious trouble in reality, not so much in D&D. D&D doesn't actually model combat that well at all.Including Second Wind. Second Wind is unrealistic. It's merely a way to give players a healing boost in combat in order to keep the PC active and the player engaged. It doesn't actually relate to anything real. In sports and boxing and martial arts, people get breathers between bouts, not during. There isn't time. If you get hurt in real combat, you stay hurt and tend to get even more hurt.Second Wind doesn't model squat and sports analogies where people get time outs are stupid. Second Wind models less of real combat than hit points do and everyone knows that hit points are an abstraction. But, at least they are an abstraction of someone getting whittled down over time.Obviously, you disagree. But anyone that thinks that any portion of D&D combat models real combat well is mistaken by definition.</blockquote>

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