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<blockquote data-quote="ezo" data-source="post: 9659077" data-attributes="member: 7037866">Was it ever???Just who are these &quot;professional looters&quot; the baker is following into the dungeon and why did the baker go?? What did they do: throw muffins at the undead they met?This margin has been practically non-existant from the beginning, and quickly disappeared.There's a reason why AD&amp;D had 0-level humanoids, for instance.Really? How? Probably is some Dragon Magazine issue I would guess??I mean yes the AD&amp;D fighter is more &quot;simple&quot; feature-wise than 5E, for example, but even the AD&amp;D fighter had 4 weapons and all armor (if they could afford it). The secondary skills and later non-weapon proficiencies often filled in the &quot;before&quot; time for the PC.What &quot;base concept&quot;? The tradesperson? Merchant? Farmer? and all the rest of the non-adventures which backgrounds, etc. represent? I still disagree wht Fighter ever represented these concepts.My thoughts are a few:Introduce 0-level again with a bit of XP to reach 1st and then pick up an adventurer class.Use sidekicks to represent these concepts (with or without 0-level).Use non-heroic classes (similar to sidekicks) from prior editions.Use any or all of the above to develop something of your own.But I guess I would ask why? Do you want a 15th-level Expert (Baker) PC?The whole point of having commoners is to not do this sort of thing, so what is your goal and why are you doing it?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ezo, post: 9659077, member: 7037866"] Was it ever??? Just who are these "professional looters" the baker is following into the dungeon and why did the baker go?? What did they do: throw muffins at the undead they met? This margin has been practically non-existant from the beginning, and quickly disappeared. There's a reason why AD&D had 0-level humanoids, for instance. Really? How? Probably is some Dragon Magazine issue I would guess?? I mean yes the AD&D fighter is more "simple" feature-wise than 5E, for example, but even the AD&D fighter had 4 weapons and all armor (if they could afford it). The secondary skills and later non-weapon proficiencies often filled in the "before" time for the PC. What "base concept"? The tradesperson? Merchant? Farmer? and all the rest of the non-adventures which backgrounds, etc. represent? I still disagree wht Fighter ever represented these concepts. My thoughts are a few: Introduce 0-level again with a bit of XP to reach 1st and then pick up an adventurer class. Use sidekicks to represent these concepts (with or without 0-level). Use non-heroic classes (similar to sidekicks) from prior editions. Use any or all of the above to develop something of your own. But I guess I would ask why? Do you want a 15th-level Expert (Baker) PC? The whole point of having commoners is to not do this sort of thing, so what is your goal and why are you doing it? [/QUOTE]

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