Should Advanced Classes include Talents?

[C. Baize]

Should advanced classes have the possibility of having talents?

The biggest argument for Advanced Classes having Talents (to me) is the added customization of the class...
The biggest argument against Advanced Classes having Talents (to me) is the fact that WotC doesn't do it, which means that many people will automatically be put off by it.

 

[Roudi]

The statement can be made that Advanced Classes are supposed to be more focused (and by logical extension, less customizable) than Basic Classes. This is true, but doesn't necessarily negate the use of Talents in an AdvC. I use the Blood & Guts Special Operations Talent Trees as examples. These trees allowed a degree of customization while still maintaining a focused class.

(there's also the fact that several similar AdvCs can draw from the same talent trees, like the abovementioned Special Operations classes in Blood & Guts: Modern Military. This allows for classes that may have similar abilities, but require different class skills, to exist without having to write a single class and several "if - then" modifications).

 

[C. Baize]

That's a good point, Roudi.
Allow me to offer a counterpoint...
In Fantasy D20 there are HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of Prestige Classes... many of them only a slight tweak from a dozen or so almost identical to it. By keeping a bit of flexibility in the Advanced / Prestige classes in D20 Modern, we can negate the absolute fixed focus of a class, and therefor the need for a very similar class with one or two different class features, but everything else the same.
Also, it increases the chances of making the character closer to your concept.
All my opinion, of course.

 

[Roudi]

Another very good point, although it begs the question - doesn't that mean that the ideal class system is one without class abilities? Basically we should have one basic class and feats instead of class abilities - that would certainly allow for the greatest degree of customization.

In seriousness, though - this isn't d20 fantasy, and thus far we haven't really hit a glut of similarly-themed classes.

Mind you... some of WotC's original AdvC's really could have done well with a Talent system instead of their linear progressions. For instance - the Soldier AdvC, a very generalized Soldier concept meant to model any kind of well-trained fighter, should have had more room for customization by virtue of it's general nature. Some soldiers are well-trained with their weapons (modeled by Weapon Focus & Specialization) but some forces train differently, focusing less on weapons and more on survival skills. A Talent-based class might have allowed for a broader take on Soldiers, but instead we are given one singular, linear AdvC that begs for variants (which we got in Blood & Guts: Soldiers).

 

[Peterson]

I think that there should be Talents in Advanced Classes for a few reasons (and I just hope I can explain them well enough):

One: You can always make "strict" class ideas into Prestige Classes. With both the idea of Advanced Classes and Prestige Classes in the same system, why should there be a need to make Advanced Classes so limiting in scope, when a Prestige Class - by its very nature - already does it?

Two: The Talent selections that are offered in Advanced Classes should keep to the Core Idea that the Advanced Class was set up to enhance. For example, let's say someone wanted to be a darn good shooter - but really wants to focus on shotguns. The someone has the current options of taking Soldier, Gunslinger (and either use sawed-off shotguns or steal a gadget from d20 Future), or what? Why not have an Advanced Class that allows you the ability to choose your goal? I could see the Talent trees being offered something like this: Pistols/Submachine Guns, Shotguns/Bolt-Action Rifles, or Assault Rifles/Machine Guns. While this could be shown in a better example, I'm a bit too tired to try.

Three: Sleep Dep Creations plans on using Talents with some of their Advanced Class designs. Why? Because we want to be known for providing options.

Four: Because I think the concept of Talents is just too cool to keep "bottled up" in Base Classes. My gamers would much rather multiclass between Base Classes than take Advanced Classes, due partly because of Talents - but more importantly, because the current Advanced Class selections don't fall into what they want to do.

I think that's it for me. I'll edit this when I'm less concerned about work.

Peterson

 

[malladin]

The biggest argument against Advanced Classes having Talents (to me) is the fact that WotC doesn't do it.

I don't know whether you mean thay have their own trees or they can pick from a combination of trees from other basic classes, but if it's the first, you might find the class in the VRNet web enhancement interesting.

NODERUNNER​

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The Cybernaut can perform amazing feats of programming legerdemain and accomplish tasks in the virtual world that other VRNet users cannot. At 1st level, and again at 4th, 7th, and 10th level, the Cybernaut gains a special ability chosen from the list below. ​

Backdoor: The Cybernaut learns how to slip his avatar into restricted areas that it has visited before. He gains a +10 competence bonus on Computer Use checks made to enter a private node (or a private room within a node) that he has previously entered or unlock a portal he has previously opened. ​

Codecrack: The Cybernaut gains a +5 competence bonus on Computer Use checks made to decrypt and read encrypted data. ​

Compression: The Cybernaut learns how to program more efficiently so that his avatar can carry more programs in its available memory. By increasing the Write DC of any program by 5, the Cybernaut can reduce its memory cost by 1 (to a minimum of 1). ​

Memory Management: The Cybernaut can delete any number of programs from his avatars’ available memory as a free action (instead of a move action). ​

Node Management: The Cybernaut knows how to monitor his own nodes (including his point-of-origin node) more closely than most users do. The detection range of any node that the Cybernaut creates is reduced by 2. Wallhack: The Cybernaut can break the rules to move more easily through a node. With a successful DC 30 Computer Use check, he can dissipate a section of wall (or similarly impassable barrier) within a node. The wall section or barrier can be up to 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 5 feet thick. ​

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Looks like a talent tree to me . I think that if you go this route and have a specific talent tree for the given Adv class, not letting them select from existing trees, then I think you'd be alright. Selecting from existing trees is probably a bit out there and actually quite bad in design as the basic classes are supposed to be balanced with the Adv Classes and you will swing this balance by doing this.​

cheerio,​

Ben, Malladin's Gate​

 

[sinmissing]

The biggest argument against Advanced Classes having Talents (to me) is the fact that WotC doesn't do it, which means that many people will automatically be put off by it.

This is a good argument, unless you're Monte Cook, then you can make your own player's handbook.

Seriously though, I understand the argument that AdCs should be focused, but how focused? The Soldier AdC, for example, couldn't possibly represent every type of soldier, can it? Snipers, Seabees, and Army Intelligence characters might see this AdC as not focused on them, and so you have the option of making another AdC. This brings me to my next point, I've noticed from the few purchases I've made over the last month that the number of supplements offering new AdCs, Feats, and Skills is going down.

I believe that Modern needs to better define an AdC from a PrC. It's the PrC that needs to be very narrowly focused, not the AdC. The AdC should expand on a small selection of talent trees.

Grim Tales, for example, while completely AdC-less, has adopted a model where certain talent trees are only accessible after you have at least 3 levels in the basic class. Spellcasting; a talent available to Smart, Dedicate, or Charismatic heroes; is only accessible as an Advanced Talent Tree. I like this model very much.

If more AdCs were like this, your PrC would be all the really exotic characters, like the Ooze Master, the Planewalker, the Space Monkey, or the Hobo.

In conclusion; I'm an airbag waiting to be deflated; but that's my 2 lbs of air pressure, YMMV.

 

[C. Baize]

I don't know whether you mean thay have their own trees or they can pick from a combination of trees from other basic classes, but if it's the first, you might find the class in the VRNet web enhancement interesting.

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Looks like a talent tree to me . I think that if you go this route and have a specific talent tree for the given Adv class, not letting them select from existing trees, then I think you'd be alright. Selecting from existing trees is probably a bit out there and actually quite bad in design as the basic classes are supposed to be balanced with the Adv Classes and you will swing this balance by doing this.​

cheerio,​

Ben, Malladin's Gate​

Right. That's my idea, is that the Advanced Class should have its own Talent Trees. I wouldn't want them to be able to cherry pick.

 

[Masada]

I don't see any game balance reason to limit Talents/Ability selection from an Advanced Class. WotC does have a number of examples of it--the Rogue class comes to mind. While this feature is missing in Modern, I don't think it was really intentional. I think the system/concept was new, they struck a pattern and then stayed with it. Play testing 12 AdC's with a multitude of game options would have been time consuming. If I had to guess, I'd say this why AdC's in d20 Modern have fixed class abilities.

 

[Roudi]

If more AdCs were like this, your PrC would be all the really exotic characters, like the Ooze Master, the Planewalker, the Space Monkey, or the Hobo.

Hobos are exotic? I'd consider making them a Basic class in most Modern games.

Or, at least, making them an Advanced Class for Ordinaries (*SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT*).