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<blockquote data-quote="ezo" data-source="post: 9506055" data-attributes="member: 7037866">I disagree.The question should be &quot;The party needs X roll filled. How can the classes we have best fulfill that roll, as well as bring along other utility?&quot;You never need a Rogue to fill a role, just like you never need a Wizard, Fighter, or Cleric, or any class to fill a particular role. Some do it better than others depending on the role, certainly, but that is where it ends.Again, I disagree. Most games don't even make it to tier 3 when Reliable Talent comes online (2014), but due to having more skills (4) and four expertises, Rogues can do a wide variety of taskes effectively even before then.Bards are a whole other issue as full casters, which they should never be IMO, but even they will only have two expertises prior to 10th level, not the four a Rogue has by 6th (a more commonly played level). IMO, Bards should never have Expertise. The class should be more about the Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None concept.I would much prefer my Wizard party member or my Bard to focus on other things than have them deal the the things the Rogue can easily handle.I'm not arguing this other classes can't do it, but given everything else, they really shouldn't be doing it.Again, I have to disagree. Rogues excel at rogue tasks, even before Reliable Talent. That might not be your experience, but as someone who plays rogues a lot and has a rogue in nearly every single party I've run or played in, that is certainly not my experience!AD&amp;D is a differnt beast. Let's not move goalposts, ok? Thanks.In 5E, a 1st level Rogue with Expertise in Stealth is +7 or +8. Most passive Perceptions are 10-12 at that level. Meaning you can sneak by them 80% of the time or so.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ezo, post: 9506055, member: 7037866"] I disagree. The question should be "The party needs X roll filled. [I]How can the classes we have[/I] best fulfill that roll, as well as bring along other utility?" You never [I]need[/I] a Rogue to fill a role, just like you never need a Wizard, Fighter, or Cleric, or any class to fill a particular role. Some do it better than others depending on the role, certainly, but that is where it ends. Again, I disagree. Most games don't even make it to tier 3 when Reliable Talent comes online (2014), but due to having more skills (4) and four expertises, Rogues can do a wide variety of taskes effectively even before then. Bards are a whole other issue as full casters, which they should never be IMO, but even they will only have two expertises prior to 10th level, not the four a Rogue has by 6th (a more commonly played level). IMO, Bards should never have Expertise. The class should be more about the Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None concept. I would much prefer my Wizard party member or my Bard to focus on other things than have them deal the the things the Rogue can easily handle. I'm not arguing this other classes can't do it, but given everything else, they really shouldn't be doing it. Again, I have to disagree. Rogues excel at rogue tasks, even before Reliable Talent. That might not be your experience, but as someone who plays rogues a lot and has a rogue in nearly every single party I've run or played in, that is certainly not my experience! AD&D is a differnt beast. Let's not move goalposts, ok? Thanks. In 5E, a 1st level Rogue with Expertise in Stealth is +7 or +8. Most passive Perceptions are 10-12 at that level. Meaning you can sneak by them 80% of the time or so. [/QUOTE]

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