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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 5799591" data-attributes="member: 92511">The arguments here (and popping up in other threads) are battles being fought on two fronts. Namely:1) The semantic baggage of Class names.2) The need/role/use of Alignments.and I suppose the teriary argument/philosophies of:a) playing an archetype on type, define/fluff them as I believe they should be/always have been and enjoying the role-play challenges and restrictions thereof and/orb) I want all the bells and whistles of playing an X with none of the restrictions (&quot;cake&quot;, meet &quot;eating it, too&quot;), define/fluff them how I see fit and who are you to tell me how to play?The first is fairly straight forward and easily adjusted, as I posed in one of the class threads around here some place.1) Rebrand &quot;Assassin&quot; as &quot;Avenger.&quot; You can be good, neutral or evil, murdering for king &amp; country, temple/religion, greed or just plain blood-thirst/sociopathy. You want to play &quot;Assassin's Creed&quot; or &quot;Dexter&quot; or&nbsp; morally/politically/socially/religiously justified vigilante (a.k.a. Batman), organizational hitman or &quot;cold-blooded psychopathic murderer&quot; knock yourself out.2) Rebrand/lump in &quot;Paladin&quot; as &quot;Champion&quot; or 'Exemplar&quot;. Align or not as wanted, season with powers to taste. Present a &quot;holy/unholy champion&quot; for Paladins and atni-paladin types and the non-religious champion, for those who want cavaliers, knights, etc. Hack, even Warlords could be lumped in here...who live by a code but not &quot;divinely&quot;-powered.And/or, for the Alignment issue:Optional system 1: 9-point &quot;traditional&quot; D&amp;D scale.Optional system 2: 3-point &quot;original&quot; scale, a la Basic, &quot;Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic&quot; or use &quot;Good/Neutral/Evil&quot; for those who like a more defined &quot;forces of good/neutral/evil&quot; in their setting/game.Optional system 3: 5-point, which I believe is the 4e scale? Lawful Good, Good, Neutral, Evil, Chaotic Evil.Optional system 4: Don't use Alignment at all.Presenting these things/elements like this should itch everyone's scratch and keep everyone, moderately, happy...I hope.My own setting/world has Paladins. They must be Lawful and must be tied to a temple/god for their continued powers. There are 2 LG gods who have paladinic orders, 1 LN (goddess of &quot;justice&quot; and &quot;the law&quot;) whose paladins are roving lawmen, &quot;soldiers of the court&quot; (talking judicial courts there, not noble/political ones), and 1 LE god of &quot;dominion and power [through force]&quot; for the anti-pally itch. This last one is basically for BBEG's and NPCs as I d not run &quot;evil&quot; campaigns...but the point is, they are there, present, in the world.Yes, alignment matters and veering from them for any length of time will result in changes and/or loss of powers. &quot;With great power comes great responsibility&quot; and all of that...There are also 'knightly warriors&quot; who are valorous and try to live a certain way or noble-youth born into a &quot;knightly&quot; household, but they lack the &quot;conviction&quot; or &quot;exemplary&quot; levels thereof to be chosen as a &quot;warrior of the faith&quot;...and if you are not a warrior of the faith, then you're just not a &quot;paladin&quot; or &quot;justicar&quot; or &quot;blackguard.&quot; It's that simple. The deities aren't devoting some of their cosmic power unto you cuz &quot;Well, he's close to what I want&quot; or &quot;She's trying really hard.&quot;As for Chaotic Barbarians and Neutral Druids, they are just there/accepted as fact/necessary.Barbarians are both race (human) and class in my setting and their cultural make-up is not &quot;Lawful&quot; in the grand scheme of cosmos and/or compared to &quot;civilized folk&quot;.Doesn't mean your Neutral druid can't be CN sometimes and NG others...or, what would appear on the surface tro be LN or NE, but Druids are concerned (in my games/setting) with &quot;the Balance&quot; (which entails not just &quot;Nature&quot; itself but &quot;nature v. civilization&quot;, &quot;good v. evil&quot; and &quot;law v. chaos&quot;) and continued/consistent actions in any particular direction will result in warnings and eventual loss of alignment and powers at some point, so swaying back to the &quot;middle&quot; alignment-wise is always the best/most prudent way to go.But that's my world and I LIKE Alignment and the 9-points both as a &quot;force/make up of the [game] universe&quot; and as an aid for players (new and old) to use in their character's personality, and I want my players' PCs to have an ethical/moral set of beliefs and incorporated in their role-play. However loosely defined or adhered to by the character. Changes in&nbsp; moral/ethical views are a normal part of personal&nbsp; developement...paladins and druids are, kinda, above/beyond or &quot;stuck&quot;&nbsp; within, in exchange for or because of, depending on your view, extraordinary powers and abilities beyond the ken of &quot;normal&quot; folk.If that sort of thing does not interest you or your DM or your group as a whole, then just leave it out. But with the &quot;modular&quot;/&quot;optional&quot;/&quot;Lego-like Build Yer Own 'Perfect' DnD:TNG&quot; you can not really argue Alignment just shouldn't be there at all or (if it is there) shouldn't matter for classes.Good morning and happy Monday, all.--SD</blockquote>

[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 5799591, member: 92511"] The arguments here (and popping up in other threads) are battles being fought on two fronts. Namely: 1) The semantic baggage of Class names. 2) The need/role/use of Alignments. and I suppose the teriary argument/philosophies of: a) playing an archetype [I]on[/I] type, define/fluff them as I believe they should be/always have been and enjoying the role-play challenges and restrictions thereof and/or b) I want all the bells and whistles of playing an X with none of the restrictions ("cake", meet "eating it, too"), define/fluff them how I see fit and who are you to tell me how to play? The first is fairly straight forward and easily adjusted, as I posed in one of the class threads around here some place. 1) Rebrand "Assassin" as "Avenger." You can be good, neutral or evil, murdering for king & country, temple/religion, greed or just plain blood-thirst/sociopathy. You want to play "Assassin's Creed" or "Dexter" or morally/politically/socially/religiously justified vigilante (a.k.a. Batman), organizational hitman or "cold-blooded psychopathic murderer" knock yourself out. 2) Rebrand/lump in "Paladin" as "Champion" or 'Exemplar". Align or not as wanted, season with powers to taste. Present a "holy/unholy champion" for Paladins and atni-paladin types and the non-religious champion, for those who want cavaliers, knights, etc. Hack, even Warlords could be lumped in here...who live by a code but not "divinely"-powered. And/or, for the Alignment issue: Optional system 1: 9-point "traditional" D&D scale. Optional system 2: 3-point "original" scale, a la Basic, "Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic" or use "Good/Neutral/Evil" for those who like a more defined "forces of good/neutral/evil" in their setting/game. Optional system 3: 5-point, which I believe is the 4e scale? Lawful Good, Good, Neutral, Evil, Chaotic Evil. Optional system 4: Don't use Alignment at all. Presenting these things/elements like this should itch everyone's scratch and keep everyone, moderately, happy...I hope. My own setting/world has Paladins. They must be Lawful and must be tied to a temple/god for their continued powers. There are 2 LG gods who have paladinic orders, 1 LN (goddess of "justice" and "the law") whose paladins are roving lawmen, "soldiers of the court" (talking judicial courts there, not noble/political ones), and 1 LE god of "dominion and power [through force]" for the anti-pally itch. This last one is basically for BBEG's and NPCs as I d not run "evil" campaigns...but the point is, they are there, present, in the world. Yes, alignment matters and veering from them for any length of time will result in changes and/or loss of powers. "With great power comes great responsibility" and all of that...There are also 'knightly warriors" who are valorous and try to live a certain way or noble-youth born into a "knightly" household, but they lack the "conviction" or "exemplary" levels thereof to be chosen as a "warrior of the faith"...and if you are not a warrior of the faith, then you're just not a "paladin" or "justicar" or "blackguard." It's that simple. The deities aren't devoting some of their cosmic power unto you cuz "Well, he's[I] close[/I] to what I want" or "She's trying really hard." As for Chaotic Barbarians and Neutral Druids, they are just there/accepted as fact/necessary. Barbarians are both race (human) and class in my setting and their cultural make-up is not "Lawful" in the grand scheme of cosmos and/or compared to "civilized folk". Doesn't mean your Neutral druid can't be CN sometimes and NG others...or, what would appear on the surface tro be LN or NE, but Druids are concerned (in my games/setting) with "the Balance" (which entails not just "Nature" itself but "nature v. civilization", "good v. evil" and "law v. chaos") and continued/consistent actions in any particular direction will result in warnings and eventual loss of alignment and powers at some point, so swaying back to the "middle" alignment-wise is always the best/most prudent way to go. But that's my world and I LIKE Alignment and the 9-points both as a "force/make up of the [game] universe" and as an aid for players (new and old) to use in their character's personality, and I want my players' PCs to have an ethical/moral set of beliefs and incorporated in their role-play. However loosely defined or adhered to by the character. Changes in moral/ethical views are a normal part of personal developement...paladins and druids are, kinda, above/beyond or "stuck" within, in exchange for or because of, depending on your view, extraordinary powers and abilities beyond the ken of "normal" folk. If that sort of thing does not interest you or your DM or your group as a whole, then just leave it out. But with the "modular"/"optional"/"Lego-like Build Yer Own 'Perfect' DnD:TNG" you can not really argue Alignment just shouldn't be there at all or (if it is there) shouldn't matter for classes. Good morning and happy Monday, all. --SD [/QUOTE]

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