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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Should clerics turn outsiders instead of undead?
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<blockquote data-quote="Staffan" data-source="post: 372331" data-attributes="member: 907"><p>Hmm. Turning undead is good on paper, but it usually only works against hordes of undead wimps. Let's compare undead CR with HD+turn resistance (for templates, I've assumed a regular character with HD = Level):</p><p>Allip: CR 3, THD (Turning HD) 6</p><p>Bodak: CR 8, THD 9</p><p>Devourer: CR 11, THD 12</p><p>Ghoul: CR 1, THD 4</p><p>Ghast: CR 3, THD 6</p><p>Ghost: CR level+2, THD level+4</p><p>Lich: CR level+2, THD level+4</p><p>Mohrg: CR 8, THD 14</p><p>Mummy: CR 3, THD 6</p><p>Nightwing: CR 14, THD 17</p><p>Nightwalker: CR 16, THD 21</p><p>Nightcrawler: CR 18, THD 25</p><p>Shadow: CR 3, THD 5</p><p>Skeleton, Tiny: CR 1/6, THD 1/4</p><p>Skeleton, Small: CR 1/4, THD 1/2</p><p>Skeleton, Medium: CR 1/3, THD 1</p><p>Skeleton, Large: CR 1, THD 2</p><p>Skeleton, Huge: CR 2, THD 4</p><p>Skeleton, Gargantuan: CR 7, THD 16</p><p>Skeleton, Colossal: CR 9, THD 32</p><p>Spectre: CR 7, THD 9</p><p>Vampire: CR level+2, THD level+4</p><p>Vampire Spawn: CR 4, THD 6</p><p>Wight: CR 3, THD 4</p><p>Wraith: CR 5, THD 7</p><p>Zombie, Tiny: CR 1/6, THD 1/2</p><p>Zombie, Small: CR 1/4, THD 1</p><p>Zombie, Medium: CR 1/2, THD 2</p><p>Zombie, Large: CR 1, THD 4</p><p>Zombie, Huge: CR 3, THD 8</p><p>Zombie, Gargantuan: CR 6, THD 24</p><p>Zombie, Colossal: CR 12, THD 48</p><p></p><p>There are *no* undead where CR is equal to or greater than the THD, which would be the "right" time for a cleric of that level to encounter a single one. Note that the turning table doesn't extend to infinity - a clerc can never turn an undead with more HD than his level+4. That means that a cleric will never be able to turn a single mohrg, nightwalker, nightcrawler, Gargantuan+ Skeleton, or Huge+ Zombie (in an encounter with EL/CR = his level). He'll need to roll 16+ (or even more in many cases) on a d20+Charisma check to turn almost any other undead, such as the templated ones. And let's not even think about what would happen to a multiclassed cleric or to a paladin.</p><p></p><p>No, turning is pretty neat for a low-level party encountering a bunch of skeletons, or a mid-level party ambushed by a group of shadows, but it's not very useful against single reasonably powerful undead.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Staffan, post: 372331, member: 907"] Hmm. Turning undead is good on paper, but it usually only works against hordes of undead wimps. Let's compare undead CR with HD+turn resistance (for templates, I've assumed a regular character with HD = Level): Allip: CR 3, THD (Turning HD) 6 Bodak: CR 8, THD 9 Devourer: CR 11, THD 12 Ghoul: CR 1, THD 4 Ghast: CR 3, THD 6 Ghost: CR level+2, THD level+4 Lich: CR level+2, THD level+4 Mohrg: CR 8, THD 14 Mummy: CR 3, THD 6 Nightwing: CR 14, THD 17 Nightwalker: CR 16, THD 21 Nightcrawler: CR 18, THD 25 Shadow: CR 3, THD 5 Skeleton, Tiny: CR 1/6, THD 1/4 Skeleton, Small: CR 1/4, THD 1/2 Skeleton, Medium: CR 1/3, THD 1 Skeleton, Large: CR 1, THD 2 Skeleton, Huge: CR 2, THD 4 Skeleton, Gargantuan: CR 7, THD 16 Skeleton, Colossal: CR 9, THD 32 Spectre: CR 7, THD 9 Vampire: CR level+2, THD level+4 Vampire Spawn: CR 4, THD 6 Wight: CR 3, THD 4 Wraith: CR 5, THD 7 Zombie, Tiny: CR 1/6, THD 1/2 Zombie, Small: CR 1/4, THD 1 Zombie, Medium: CR 1/2, THD 2 Zombie, Large: CR 1, THD 4 Zombie, Huge: CR 3, THD 8 Zombie, Gargantuan: CR 6, THD 24 Zombie, Colossal: CR 12, THD 48 There are *no* undead where CR is equal to or greater than the THD, which would be the "right" time for a cleric of that level to encounter a single one. Note that the turning table doesn't extend to infinity - a clerc can never turn an undead with more HD than his level+4. That means that a cleric will never be able to turn a single mohrg, nightwalker, nightcrawler, Gargantuan+ Skeleton, or Huge+ Zombie (in an encounter with EL/CR = his level). He'll need to roll 16+ (or even more in many cases) on a d20+Charisma check to turn almost any other undead, such as the templated ones. And let's not even think about what would happen to a multiclassed cleric or to a paladin. No, turning is pretty neat for a low-level party encountering a bunch of skeletons, or a mid-level party ambushed by a group of shadows, but it's not very useful against single reasonably powerful undead. [/QUOTE]
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Should clerics turn outsiders instead of undead?
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