Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Should D&D be marketed like Coke, Ketchup, or Spaghetti Sauce?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 6280946" data-attributes="member: 17106"><p>No. But I'd want to know how it worked, and I'd be getting a lot of that information from the DM and the players (as opposed to the books) anyway. In that context, it's probably about equally easy to learn some radical mod as it is to learn the core game, because the new player has no expectations. That's assuming it's a mixed group with some experienced players; if everyone's new then it is different, but it seems to me that everyone fumbles through together.</p><p></p><p>As rational as I admit that sounds, it doesn't match my experience at all. I played with some pretty lousy DMs as a beginner, and it didn't dissuade me (or any of the others). It just made us want to run a better game.</p><p></p><p>To me, because it's a game that is played with your imagination, there's a naturally aspirational quality to it. People have an image of the character they want to play or the story they want to tell, and they'll fight through a lot of BS to reach that vision. Just my opinion.</p><p></p><p>Then again, I don't really agree that 4e invented good DMing advice. I saw some good stuff in the 3e DMG (not that there isn't plenty of bad). I saw plenty wrong with the 4e DMG. It's obvious that whatever books there are should provide good advice, but what that constitutes is hardly above debate.</p><p></p><p>I don't know. I think it's unrealistic to expect that you can be good at something without trying. I can go into a big box store and buy a baseball bat, but that doesn't mean I'll be able to play on a team without putting in quite a bit of work in several different domains (learning the rules and strategy, fitness training, and live play). There are many hobbies that require a lot of work, but which are nonetheless very popular.</p><p></p><p>I think it's important to be realistic about these things. Realistically, how good your game is and how rewarding of an experience it is will depend to a significant extent on how much you personally invest in it. How much time you invest in it will depend to a significant extent on how much you enjoy the game (and also on many other things like what else you may want to do with your spare time). There's a back and forth relationship there.</p><p></p><p>I come at this as someone who had specialized education in the dramatic arts at a young age and has a variety of talents that lend themselves to rpgs. Which has always lead me to two questions: could someone less advantaged than me DM as well as I do? And should the game be tailored to a broad group of fairly average people, or a specialized group of hobbyists whose interests and skills are better suited to the game than the average commoner (so to speak)?</p><p></p><p>I prefer the game to be built by and for advanced operators, leaving the not-so-advanced ones to either strive to catch up or simply letting them go off to another hobby that better suits their talents. Reasonable people may differ.</p><p></p><p>I suspect that having a group using a set of rules that is not suited to their predilections also produces a lot of bad gaming. There are plenty of people who tried those rules and had bad experiences and left (of course, most people who are still on board now are the ones who had good initial experiences). The smaller the box is drawn, the more people will be outside it, and if those people wanted to be included or thought that they were, they're not going to be happy.</p><p></p><p>In a perverse way, I wonder if the rules problems that do exist in D&D aren't helpful in developing the culture. After all, if everyone has to houserule and hack away to get what they want, the process of doing so helps them articulate what they want, and they learn to trust in their own common sense rather than pulling out the rulebook for everything. Which sounds a lot like the virtues of so called "old-school" gaming.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ahnehnois, post: 6280946, member: 17106"] No. But I'd want to know how it worked, and I'd be getting a lot of that information from the DM and the players (as opposed to the books) anyway. In that context, it's probably about equally easy to learn some radical mod as it is to learn the core game, because the new player has no expectations. That's assuming it's a mixed group with some experienced players; if everyone's new then it is different, but it seems to me that everyone fumbles through together. As rational as I admit that sounds, it doesn't match my experience at all. I played with some pretty lousy DMs as a beginner, and it didn't dissuade me (or any of the others). It just made us want to run a better game. To me, because it's a game that is played with your imagination, there's a naturally aspirational quality to it. People have an image of the character they want to play or the story they want to tell, and they'll fight through a lot of BS to reach that vision. Just my opinion. Then again, I don't really agree that 4e invented good DMing advice. I saw some good stuff in the 3e DMG (not that there isn't plenty of bad). I saw plenty wrong with the 4e DMG. It's obvious that whatever books there are should provide good advice, but what that constitutes is hardly above debate. I don't know. I think it's unrealistic to expect that you can be good at something without trying. I can go into a big box store and buy a baseball bat, but that doesn't mean I'll be able to play on a team without putting in quite a bit of work in several different domains (learning the rules and strategy, fitness training, and live play). There are many hobbies that require a lot of work, but which are nonetheless very popular. I think it's important to be realistic about these things. Realistically, how good your game is and how rewarding of an experience it is will depend to a significant extent on how much you personally invest in it. How much time you invest in it will depend to a significant extent on how much you enjoy the game (and also on many other things like what else you may want to do with your spare time). There's a back and forth relationship there. I come at this as someone who had specialized education in the dramatic arts at a young age and has a variety of talents that lend themselves to rpgs. Which has always lead me to two questions: could someone less advantaged than me DM as well as I do? And should the game be tailored to a broad group of fairly average people, or a specialized group of hobbyists whose interests and skills are better suited to the game than the average commoner (so to speak)? I prefer the game to be built by and for advanced operators, leaving the not-so-advanced ones to either strive to catch up or simply letting them go off to another hobby that better suits their talents. Reasonable people may differ. I suspect that having a group using a set of rules that is not suited to their predilections also produces a lot of bad gaming. There are plenty of people who tried those rules and had bad experiences and left (of course, most people who are still on board now are the ones who had good initial experiences). The smaller the box is drawn, the more people will be outside it, and if those people wanted to be included or thought that they were, they're not going to be happy. In a perverse way, I wonder if the rules problems that do exist in D&D aren't helpful in developing the culture. After all, if everyone has to houserule and hack away to get what they want, the process of doing so helps them articulate what they want, and they learn to trust in their own common sense rather than pulling out the rulebook for everything. Which sounds a lot like the virtues of so called "old-school" gaming. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Should D&D be marketed like Coke, Ketchup, or Spaghetti Sauce?
Top