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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9511382" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I thought this was in reference to valor bards and this looks like moving the goal post.  I don't think you've demonstrated why sorcerers need weapon mastery at all or cleave in particular, but the sorcerer needs the martial weapon training feat before 9th level and can use a training area in their bastion to gain the weapon mastery trait of a great axe for cleave with the empower option.This costs one feat and downtime before the adventure.These classes don't need cleave and giving them a free weapon mastery doesn't change their weapon proficiencies.  You're incorrect though.A druid with the warden primal order has proficiency in martial weapons and can take the weapon mastery feat at 4th level for cleave.A warlock with pact of the blade is proficient in that weapon, which can be a battle axe, to qualify for the weapon master feat.Any of them can take the martial weapon training feat and then the weapon master feat for +2 worth of ability score increase and that weapon mastery.Cleave is still moving the goal post from weapon mastery to specific weapon mastery.  Any of them can spend one feat for weapon mastery within their weapon proficiencies.There's nothing wrong with that.  Just because a martial class has an option doesn't mean a full caster needs the same option.  Full casters have plenty of options not available to martial characters.  Using that option removes extra attack for most of them, though, so the desire to give free stuff to casters in order to match an unlikely option for martials makes even less sense.It's also something you're incorrect about.  Rogues cannot cleave either.  Weapon mastery isn't weapon proficiency.Several spellcasters can take the weapon mastery feat and also apply it to green-flame blade, however.They weren't wrong.  Cleave attacks a second target in the attack and green-flame blade damages a second target in the attack.  Green-flame blade is better, however, because it doesn't require a second attack roll and typically does more damage unless the cleave can stack some bonus damage on the attack.Vicious mockery also replicates sap.  Ray of frost replicates slow.  Thorn whip does pull instead of push.Weapon masteries don't replicate chill touch preventing healing or mind sliver inflicting a save penalty, or many other cantrip options.Only if you push the goal posts cherry picking cleave because of weapon proficiencies.  But I did demonstrate otherwise above.Hard disagree.  Weapon mastery is a martial trait with no good reason to give it to full casters other than your desire for it.Which is meaningless outside of that comparison.  Just because it's harder to do something EK's can do easily isn't a reason to give that ability to everyone else.That's like saying all martials should cast wish because wizards can and fighters can't.  Just because something exists doesn't make you entitled to it.  Hard disagree.  It becomes less fun for players who see their toys being given away.  It's the whole basis for protecting iconic spells for spellcasters.  That same protection goes the other way.</blockquote>

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