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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Should I play 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 7620910" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>I can see what he's saying, as it was one of the factors that ultimately turned me off of 3e, despite that I loved it initially, and still respect the design contributions it made to the game. It was not all that uncommon in 3e for life or death to be determined by who won initiative. Hence why the combat could be described as 'rocket tag'. There would typically also be one or more attack rolls or saving throws, but because of the way the math was structured those could be nothing more than a formality. </p><p></p><p>You could literally die before getting a turn to act, and it wasn't that uncommon. It might be exciting for a one-shot, but by the time you're rolling up your twelve character in the same number of sessions, it got very old very fast (IME). </p><p></p><p>Now, certainly, that didn't always happen, but if you had a DM who didn't believe in pulling punches then it could happen fairly often. There was (again IME) only a relatively small sweet spot from about 3rd to 6th level where it was an uncommon occurrence.</p><p></p><p>Death can certainly be meaningful. But in my opinion, you generally need to have some meaningful input into that death for it to be so. That was a place where 3e frequently failed me, as you could pretty easily die having been given no input into the matter. That's from both a DM's and player's perspective. Even when I'm running the game, I prefer my players having had some chance to make choices for their characters in life or death situations. Otherwise the "victory" feels cheap and unearned.</p><p></p><p>IME, 4e did a good job of making PCs robust enough that they'd pretty much never get one shot without being able to act. It arguably went too far in the opposite direction for some folk's tastes. 5e, by comparison, seems to deliver a compromise of the two. I've seen characters get one shot without being able to act, but it's rare. I see no reason to dislike either 3e or 4e if you like 5e, even if you would never want to play the former two again. Without the contributions from both designs (and those of earlier editions as well) I think it's safe to say that 5e would be a very different game; quite possibly not nearly as good as it is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 7620910, member: 53980"] I can see what he's saying, as it was one of the factors that ultimately turned me off of 3e, despite that I loved it initially, and still respect the design contributions it made to the game. It was not all that uncommon in 3e for life or death to be determined by who won initiative. Hence why the combat could be described as 'rocket tag'. There would typically also be one or more attack rolls or saving throws, but because of the way the math was structured those could be nothing more than a formality. You could literally die before getting a turn to act, and it wasn't that uncommon. It might be exciting for a one-shot, but by the time you're rolling up your twelve character in the same number of sessions, it got very old very fast (IME). Now, certainly, that didn't always happen, but if you had a DM who didn't believe in pulling punches then it could happen fairly often. There was (again IME) only a relatively small sweet spot from about 3rd to 6th level where it was an uncommon occurrence. Death can certainly be meaningful. But in my opinion, you generally need to have some meaningful input into that death for it to be so. That was a place where 3e frequently failed me, as you could pretty easily die having been given no input into the matter. That's from both a DM's and player's perspective. Even when I'm running the game, I prefer my players having had some chance to make choices for their characters in life or death situations. Otherwise the "victory" feels cheap and unearned. IME, 4e did a good job of making PCs robust enough that they'd pretty much never get one shot without being able to act. It arguably went too far in the opposite direction for some folk's tastes. 5e, by comparison, seems to deliver a compromise of the two. I've seen characters get one shot without being able to act, but it's rare. I see no reason to dislike either 3e or 4e if you like 5e, even if you would never want to play the former two again. Without the contributions from both designs (and those of earlier editions as well) I think it's safe to say that 5e would be a very different game; quite possibly not nearly as good as it is. [/QUOTE]
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