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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Should I play 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7621932" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>::shrug:: A more accurate claim would be that "4e was not nearly as bad a game as every other edition of D&D." Because, honestly, it still wasn't that good. Scale of 1 to 10? D&D's never risen to 5. I'm not sure any RPG has, TTRPG is a new kind of game, and it's evolved very slowly over a mere 45 years.</p><p></p><p></p><p> None taken. D&D has only been fairly popular in the fad years of the mid 80s and the current come-back. And /ad populum/ remains a fallacy.</p><p></p><p>But that's not the only difference. Hasbro bought WotC with the 3.0 SRD a fiat acompli. The genie was out of the bottle, the 3.5 and 5e SRDs don't really release a lot of IP that wasn't already in the 3.0 - a hypothetical 4e OGL/SRD /would/. So it's not going to happen.</p><p></p><p> You can love something for it's virtues, you can love it in spite of it's flaws, and you can even love it /for/ some of it's flaws. None of those are actually "wrong" reasons.</p><p></p><p>But they're reasons that are important to understand if you're considering compromising on one of those virtues or fixing one of those flaws...</p><p></p><p> Yep. Gets into the "reality isn't real" trope. The sound of coconuts knocked together sounds more like horses hooves to movie goers than actual horses actual hooves would if they were ever to actually hear them.</p><p></p><p> Sure. 5e did that very well, it's great accomplishment was finding that compromise between keeping the game acceptable - and, yes, that means, in a very real sense, /bad/ - to it's most ardent fans; yet also accessible to potential new fans who have not had 25+years to develop the same predilections. 4e erred on the wrong side of that formula, outraging enough of the hard core to generate a controversy that repelled the mainstream before they could even try it for themselves. 5e avoided that, so it had a chance, and it didn't repel enough of the mainstream to ruin that chance. (Hmmm... it created a lot less furor in our community, but 3e is /possibly/ an example of that: acceptable enough to the fanbase to sweep the hobby, but not accessible enough to the mainstream to take off, even though D&D seemed poised for a comeback, then, too).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, you can, just like you can blame a game for improving when you liked taking advantage of the specific ways it was broken in the past (Hero Systems' 6th ed lost me in much the same way 4e lost some 3.x fans) - but I agree you shouldn't /blame/ them, but, rather, understand where they're coming from and let them continue to exercise their preference. </p><p></p><p>Like, if you think people shouldn't really smoke (it's none of your business, but if), and you ask them why they keep smoking even though it's bad for them, you'd get answers like "I like the flavor" or "it gives me something to do with my hands," or maybe even "when you've seen as much as I have, you realize that there are far worse things in this world than cancer." Addressing those issues (if you even can) isn't going to get them to quit. And, y'know, /it's their choice/.</p><p></p><p>But, by the same token, you shouldn't blame people for liking something new, and certainly shouldn't go out of your way to destroy it out of spite. </p><p></p><p>Like, if your friend's trying to quit, don't hide his nicotine patches, y'know?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7621932, member: 996"] ::shrug:: A more accurate claim would be that "4e was not nearly as bad a game as every other edition of D&D." Because, honestly, it still wasn't that good. Scale of 1 to 10? D&D's never risen to 5. I'm not sure any RPG has, TTRPG is a new kind of game, and it's evolved very slowly over a mere 45 years. None taken. D&D has only been fairly popular in the fad years of the mid 80s and the current come-back. And /ad populum/ remains a fallacy. But that's not the only difference. Hasbro bought WotC with the 3.0 SRD a fiat acompli. The genie was out of the bottle, the 3.5 and 5e SRDs don't really release a lot of IP that wasn't already in the 3.0 - a hypothetical 4e OGL/SRD /would/. So it's not going to happen. You can love something for it's virtues, you can love it in spite of it's flaws, and you can even love it /for/ some of it's flaws. None of those are actually "wrong" reasons. But they're reasons that are important to understand if you're considering compromising on one of those virtues or fixing one of those flaws... Yep. Gets into the "reality isn't real" trope. The sound of coconuts knocked together sounds more like horses hooves to movie goers than actual horses actual hooves would if they were ever to actually hear them. Sure. 5e did that very well, it's great accomplishment was finding that compromise between keeping the game acceptable - and, yes, that means, in a very real sense, /bad/ - to it's most ardent fans; yet also accessible to potential new fans who have not had 25+years to develop the same predilections. 4e erred on the wrong side of that formula, outraging enough of the hard core to generate a controversy that repelled the mainstream before they could even try it for themselves. 5e avoided that, so it had a chance, and it didn't repel enough of the mainstream to ruin that chance. (Hmmm... it created a lot less furor in our community, but 3e is /possibly/ an example of that: acceptable enough to the fanbase to sweep the hobby, but not accessible enough to the mainstream to take off, even though D&D seemed poised for a comeback, then, too). Well, you can, just like you can blame a game for improving when you liked taking advantage of the specific ways it was broken in the past (Hero Systems' 6th ed lost me in much the same way 4e lost some 3.x fans) - but I agree you shouldn't /blame/ them, but, rather, understand where they're coming from and let them continue to exercise their preference. Like, if you think people shouldn't really smoke (it's none of your business, but if), and you ask them why they keep smoking even though it's bad for them, you'd get answers like "I like the flavor" or "it gives me something to do with my hands," or maybe even "when you've seen as much as I have, you realize that there are far worse things in this world than cancer." Addressing those issues (if you even can) isn't going to get them to quit. And, y'know, /it's their choice/. But, by the same token, you shouldn't blame people for liking something new, and certainly shouldn't go out of your way to destroy it out of spite. Like, if your friend's trying to quit, don't hide his nicotine patches, y'know? [/QUOTE]
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