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Should Insight be able to determine if an NPC is lying?
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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7591047"><p>Ok, time for some thread forensics. Reading back through I both acknowledge that I wasn't as clear as I should have been, and I wasn't paying attention to who wrote what.</p><p></p><p>First there was this:</p><p></p><p></p><p>To which I replied:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I'll stand by that claim. I do think a lot of people, here on this forum, would say that dictating "the character believes" as a result of a die roll is crossing the line of player agency.</p><p></p><p>At the same time, I <em>don't</em> think that in this context a lot of people would take offense at, "You think he's telling the truth..." because, although it's largely meant in the same spirit, I don't think it carries the full weight of dictating beliefs. If a DM says, "You think he's telling the truth" and the player says, "Hmmm...I still don't quite trust him" I don't think (god I hope) many DMs would say, "No, sorry, you used Insight and now you must abide by the die roll."</p><p></p><p>And yet, that's what I thought D1Tremere was saying. And if he was, I think a lot of people here would balk at that.</p><p></p><p>Then D1Tremere wrote:</p><p></p><p></p><p>By which I <em>think</em> he means that there's no such constraint. Or it could mean that the PC's beliefs have been dictated, and the player is free to choose actions that take that into account. Honestly I'm not sure.</p><p></p><p>But then to further confuse things, you wrote a post beginning with:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>...and somehow I thought that was also coming from D1Tremere. So I've made a couple of references to D1Trememe mitigating his early statements, but that was you. :-/ Sorry...I've made a muddle of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, ok, guilty. That was a glib response.</p><p></p><p>My real response is: yes, your'e right, there's no way to use Insight as a lie detector without telling the player, in some form, what their character thinks.</p><p></p><p><strong>And that's a major reason why Insight shouldn't be used as a lie detector.</strong></p><p></p><p>I'd much rather have hints and clues be revealed, and let the player decide what the character thinks. Or reveal (as per @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=97077" target="_blank">iserith</a></u></strong></em>) bonds, flaws, etc...and again let the player decide what the character thinks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7591047"] Ok, time for some thread forensics. Reading back through I both acknowledge that I wasn't as clear as I should have been, and I wasn't paying attention to who wrote what. First there was this: To which I replied: And I'll stand by that claim. I do think a lot of people, here on this forum, would say that dictating "the character believes" as a result of a die roll is crossing the line of player agency. At the same time, I [I]don't[/I] think that in this context a lot of people would take offense at, "You think he's telling the truth..." because, although it's largely meant in the same spirit, I don't think it carries the full weight of dictating beliefs. If a DM says, "You think he's telling the truth" and the player says, "Hmmm...I still don't quite trust him" I don't think (god I hope) many DMs would say, "No, sorry, you used Insight and now you must abide by the die roll." And yet, that's what I thought D1Tremere was saying. And if he was, I think a lot of people here would balk at that. Then D1Tremere wrote: By which I [I]think[/I] he means that there's no such constraint. Or it could mean that the PC's beliefs have been dictated, and the player is free to choose actions that take that into account. Honestly I'm not sure. But then to further confuse things, you wrote a post beginning with: ...and somehow I thought that was also coming from D1Tremere. So I've made a couple of references to D1Trememe mitigating his early statements, but that was you. :-/ Sorry...I've made a muddle of it. Yeah, ok, guilty. That was a glib response. My real response is: yes, your'e right, there's no way to use Insight as a lie detector without telling the player, in some form, what their character thinks. [B]And that's a major reason why Insight shouldn't be used as a lie detector.[/B] I'd much rather have hints and clues be revealed, and let the player decide what the character thinks. Or reveal (as per @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=97077"]iserith[/URL][/U][/B][/I]) bonds, flaws, etc...and again let the player decide what the character thinks. [/QUOTE]
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Should Insight be able to determine if an NPC is lying?
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