Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9478594" data-attributes="member: 87792">One of the improvements made in the 2024 rules was how it eased back out of this trap through moving the subclasses to level 3 and adding stat modifiers to the feats.Under 2014 rules the strongest paladin and contender for the strongest all rounder in the game (certainly the strongest without 9th level spells) was easily the single level dip into hexblade (which as a bonus even gave you the Shield spell; dipping no longer grants a multiclass). Especially with Variant Human or Custom Lineage to pick up Polearm Master at level 1 to combine with spear and shield or duelist style. This meant that by level 9 you'd be rocking Cha 20 (plus either Str 15 or, more often Str 13, Dex 14) and getting up to four attacks per round all with the best saves in the game. All while having a very good AC (you have a shield), being able to smite, and more.Under 2024 rules this took some heavy sideways nerfs and not just because you can't take PAM at level 1. It (or even its magic initiate Shileleagh partner) has the serious disadvantage that the melee feats add to physical stats but not mental ones. A pure Charismadin is a defensive build, not an offensive one, and doesn't get the stat buff to offensive stats from e.g. Great Weapon Master, Shield Master, Polearm Master, Dual Wielder, Sentinel, Charger, or Mounted Combatant. (They also like Polearm Master a whole lot less than they used to because, rather than having basically no bonus action abilities so always getting the bonus action attack, both Smite and Lay on Hands now use their bonus actions).With a starting prime stat of 17 the charismadin can, at level 4, choose a melee feat or a Cha of 18. The strength or dexterity based paladin can have both. By level 12 they are two combat feats behind as with three combat feats the paladin just hit Str or Dex 20. Is it worth it for +3 to all saves? Probably. But the best way of coping with incoming spells is to deal with the enemies making them. (Oh, and like for like for a paladin Magic Initiate (Druid) for Shilleleagh is more than cancelled out by Magic Initiate (Wizard) for Shield).The charismadin dominated the 2014 melee meta. They are one of the few builds to get nerfed. Meanwhile almost everyone else got buffed substantially.Should they have gone further? Possibly. We need to see how the metagame shakes out. But I have no inherent problem with defensive high utility Cha-primary paladins. I do have a problem with the 2014 situation where Cha primary was Just Better.</blockquote>

Verification