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Message: <blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 5747576" data-attributes="member: 463">Lemme see:My feeling, informed by the discussion I initiated, is that:1. In a Gamist game it's unfair to limit player behaviour by reference to PC mental stats, except to the extent hard-coded into the rules. The player is supposed to be trying hard to win/succeed. Punishing this is unfair. In hardcore gamism the PC is just a pawn to be manipulated by the player in pursuit of victory - all is fair, within the rules.2. In a Simulation, it may well be fair to expect players to play PCs in accordance with their listed stats. The player is not supposed to be trying to 'win' using all their personal resources, they are supposed to be exploring the imaginary world to find out what happens. Dramatic or narrativist play is similar, but the player probably has a slightly different stance in regards to their PC.D&D came out of wargames, which are gamist with a simulation element. My impression is that most people play it basically according to #1, a smaller number according to #2, whereas some other games like Call of Cthulu are more commonly played according to #2. As I said, I think it's unfair for the GM to be running a #1 game but expect the players to stick to #2 norms. However many games occupy a space somewhere between the two, in which case the group needs to establish its particular social contract at the table. Games with a strong emphasis on 'story', but where the story is defined as 'defeat X encounters to complete the adventure', can easily fall into this grey area.OK, it looks like my big mistake was to include a throwaway line Dramatic or narrativist play is similar, but the player probably has a slightly different stance in regards to their PC which did not speak to the point I was trying to make, and raised visions of GNS Narrativism.  Sorry about that.How about:"1. If the player is supposed to be trying hard to win/succeed, then punishing them for not limiting PC behaviour by reference to PC mental stats is unfair.2. If the player is not supposed to be trying to 'win' using all their personal resources, but  supposed to be exploring the imaginary world to find out what happens, then  it may well be fair to expect players to play PCs in accordance with their listed stats.D&D came out of wargames. My impression is that most people play it basically according to #1, a smaller number according to #2, whereas some other games like Call of Cthulu are more commonly played according to #2." Is that better?</blockquote>

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