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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2176840" data-attributes="member: 4937">In my experience, players knowing the rules just gets in the way of thier role playing.&nbsp;&nbsp; They should only learn the rules after they've mastered role playing as a skill.The very best experiences I've had as a DM are with player's that don't know the rules at all.&nbsp;&nbsp; Without any knowledge of the rules, the players are forced to tell me what thier character does in descriptive ways rather than in the precise but sterile language of the game system.&nbsp;&nbsp; That makes the game so much better.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's more fun for me as a DM, and it cuts down on the metagaming, the point maximizing, the twinkism, the rules lawyering, the whining, the demands for do-overs because the player forgot he was due some bonus, the page flipping by players who are reading when they should be listening, and the other things that get in the way of a good game.On the other hand, a DM needs to know the rules of the game (and the contents of modules) backwards and forwards.&nbsp;&nbsp; A DM that needs to look up a feat or a spell effect or the rules on grappling or such is IMO not a very good DM.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's your job to make sure all that goes so smoothly that there is never a significant interuption between the player declaring his intentions, and the DM relaying back to him the results.&nbsp;&nbsp; Game's should be engrossing, rapid, and when danger is present tense and exciting.&nbsp;&nbsp; Any time you spend 45 seconds (or longer!) flipping through a book, you're player's attention will understandably wander.&nbsp;&nbsp; Nothing irritates me more than being a PC to a DM who clearly doesn't know the system he's running.&nbsp;&nbsp; The really good DM's always seem to be master's of the system, even if you latter learn that in the first three sessions they were totally screwing things up but were able to seamlessly integrate the things that they learned as they went along.&nbsp;&nbsp; As a PC, IMO not knowing what the system is in know way detracts from the quality of the game, and this only reinforces my opinion that players don't need to know the rules.The only thing that comes close to being as irritating as a DM that doesn't know the rules, is a player that doesn't feel he can 'role play' until he knows the rules.&nbsp;&nbsp; For me, this is the very definition of a 'roll player' and I'm seriously tempted everytime I meet such a player to just tell him to stop wasting my time and go find a game elsewhere.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 2176840, member: 4937"] In my experience, players knowing the rules just gets in the way of thier role playing. They should only learn the rules after they've mastered role playing as a skill. The very best experiences I've had as a DM are with player's that don't know the rules at all. Without any knowledge of the rules, the players are forced to tell me what thier character does in descriptive ways rather than in the precise but sterile language of the game system. That makes the game so much better. It's more fun for me as a DM, and it cuts down on the metagaming, the point maximizing, the twinkism, the rules lawyering, the whining, the demands for do-overs because the player forgot he was due some bonus, the page flipping by players who are reading when they should be listening, and the other things that get in the way of a good game. On the other hand, a DM needs to know the rules of the game (and the contents of modules) backwards and forwards. A DM that needs to look up a feat or a spell effect or the rules on grappling or such is IMO not a very good DM. It's your job to make sure all that goes so smoothly that there is never a significant interuption between the player declaring his intentions, and the DM relaying back to him the results. Game's should be engrossing, rapid, and when danger is present tense and exciting. Any time you spend 45 seconds (or longer!) flipping through a book, you're player's attention will understandably wander. Nothing irritates me more than being a PC to a DM who clearly doesn't know the system he's running. The really good DM's always seem to be master's of the system, even if you latter learn that in the first three sessions they were totally screwing things up but were able to seamlessly integrate the things that they learned as they went along. As a PC, IMO not knowing what the system is in know way detracts from the quality of the game, and this only reinforces my opinion that players don't need to know the rules. The only thing that comes close to being as irritating as a DM that doesn't know the rules, is a player that doesn't feel he can 'role play' until he knows the rules. For me, this is the very definition of a 'roll player' and I'm seriously tempted everytime I meet such a player to just tell him to stop wasting my time and go find a game elsewhere. [/QUOTE]

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