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Should the PHB have an arcane half caster?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8925488" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Mostly that the wizard and CoDzilla aren't ridiculous.</p><p></p><p>The 3.X sorcerer had serious issues. <em>It didn't know enough spells</em>. And I can't take you seriously if you're still talking about "the 3.X bard".</p><p></p><p>PF1 managed to break the bard with its "more interesting things" because the designers didn't understand how the bard was supposed to work. You gain a few new things (Dirge of Doom not having a save being a highlight) but Pathfinder managed to significantly nerf <em>literally all</em> the existing bard abilities.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bardic Knowledge scaling changed; the 3.5 Bard's knowledge scaled with level making you a good generalist while pathfinder's scaled with half level but added to knowledge skills for a tight focus. Weaker, less interesting.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bardic Music uses plummeted from Level uses/day to a set number of rounds per day. You had to dole out your performances like a miser and basically couldn't perform one three minute song and empower the whole thing. A 3.5 (or even 3.0) bard could go through entire works of epic poetry.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Inspire Courage was shattered in three ways<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It was actively nerfed in duration; in 3.5 you keep Inspire Courage for five rounds after you stop hearing it (among other things giving some protection from spells like Silence). In PF you only get as long as you hear it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">All the support for it went and I don't think was ever replaced</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Due to the incredibly limited duration you couldn't use it as an ongoing thing. This made it almost useless other than in an ambush until level 7 as you had to give up your action to set it up.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fascinate was destroyed. In 3.5 fascinate was a very weak effect that had two things going for it; it had the hardest save DC in a game, and a basically unlimited duration as long as the bard remained present and performing. So you could use it as a viable long term distraction. Pathfinder broke all that and Fascinate still has a very weak and easy to break effect but now only has an average save DC and rather than taking a single performance burns your number of rounds per day of music.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Inspire competence remained useless.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Suggestion was sideways nerfed. You need to fascinate before you can suggest and you get a saving throw against suggestion. So far so good. In 3.5 Fascinate's DC is a skill roll and very hard to beat. But as the PF fascinate is pretty easy to beat then Suggestion has a very low chance of success.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Inspire Greatness was, guess what, nerfed (although you can at this level start it as a move action). In 3.5 it lasts for 5 rounds after someone stopped hearing it - while in PF it lasts only while it can be heard. This, among other things, allows for buff stacking and for protection from silence.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Inspire Heroics. 5 round buffer gone.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mass Suggestion. As Suggestion - sideways nerfed through fascinate.</li> </ul><p>Oh, and a couple of the bard mainstay spells (Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Glibness spring to mind) were nerfed.</p><p></p><p>The main "interesting" things PF did to the 3.5 bard was added high level bling - while throwing grit into the engine of what made the core bard work.</p><p></p><p>Apparently you don't believe in adding the buffs to the effect of the attack. As I mentioned +4/+4 is achievable by level 3. (One feat, one spell, one magic item). If you think that level of swing is meaningless I don't know what to tell you.</p><p></p><p>I thought I'd said. There's a feat for +1, a first level spell for +1, and a 1600GP magic item 3/day all in the obvious splatbooks (no going dumpster diving into e.g. Secrets of Sarlonia).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8925488, member: 87792"] Mostly that the wizard and CoDzilla aren't ridiculous. The 3.X sorcerer had serious issues. [I]It didn't know enough spells[/I]. And I can't take you seriously if you're still talking about "the 3.X bard". PF1 managed to break the bard with its "more interesting things" because the designers didn't understand how the bard was supposed to work. You gain a few new things (Dirge of Doom not having a save being a highlight) but Pathfinder managed to significantly nerf [I]literally all[/I] the existing bard abilities. [LIST] [*]Bardic Knowledge scaling changed; the 3.5 Bard's knowledge scaled with level making you a good generalist while pathfinder's scaled with half level but added to knowledge skills for a tight focus. Weaker, less interesting. [*]Bardic Music uses plummeted from Level uses/day to a set number of rounds per day. You had to dole out your performances like a miser and basically couldn't perform one three minute song and empower the whole thing. A 3.5 (or even 3.0) bard could go through entire works of epic poetry. [*]Inspire Courage was shattered in three ways [LIST] [*]It was actively nerfed in duration; in 3.5 you keep Inspire Courage for five rounds after you stop hearing it (among other things giving some protection from spells like Silence). In PF you only get as long as you hear it [*]All the support for it went and I don't think was ever replaced [*]Due to the incredibly limited duration you couldn't use it as an ongoing thing. This made it almost useless other than in an ambush until level 7 as you had to give up your action to set it up. [/LIST] [*]Fascinate was destroyed. In 3.5 fascinate was a very weak effect that had two things going for it; it had the hardest save DC in a game, and a basically unlimited duration as long as the bard remained present and performing. So you could use it as a viable long term distraction. Pathfinder broke all that and Fascinate still has a very weak and easy to break effect but now only has an average save DC and rather than taking a single performance burns your number of rounds per day of music. [*]Inspire competence remained useless. [*]Suggestion was sideways nerfed. You need to fascinate before you can suggest and you get a saving throw against suggestion. So far so good. In 3.5 Fascinate's DC is a skill roll and very hard to beat. But as the PF fascinate is pretty easy to beat then Suggestion has a very low chance of success. [*]Inspire Greatness was, guess what, nerfed (although you can at this level start it as a move action). In 3.5 it lasts for 5 rounds after someone stopped hearing it - while in PF it lasts only while it can be heard. This, among other things, allows for buff stacking and for protection from silence. [*]Inspire Heroics. 5 round buffer gone. [*]Mass Suggestion. As Suggestion - sideways nerfed through fascinate. [/LIST] Oh, and a couple of the bard mainstay spells (Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Glibness spring to mind) were nerfed. The main "interesting" things PF did to the 3.5 bard was added high level bling - while throwing grit into the engine of what made the core bard work. Apparently you don't believe in adding the buffs to the effect of the attack. As I mentioned +4/+4 is achievable by level 3. (One feat, one spell, one magic item). If you think that level of swing is meaningless I don't know what to tell you. I thought I'd said. There's a feat for +1, a first level spell for +1, and a 1600GP magic item 3/day all in the obvious splatbooks (no going dumpster diving into e.g. Secrets of Sarlonia). [/QUOTE]
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Should the PHB have an arcane half caster?
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