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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5571784" data-attributes="member: 18280"><p>I would certainly say that players have the freedom to take action within the campaign milieu, but not that they have freedom to write the milieu. (There are games, of course, where this restriction need not apply, or would make no sense to apply.)</p><p></p><p>The problem here is not that the player upset the GM by smashing the treasure, but, rather, that the player upset the <em><strong>other players</strong></em>. Something that may seem hard to grasp, perhaps, but it is not a subtle difference.</p><p></p><p>Especially in a group where the same people meet every week/month/whatever to play, if one player is consistently playing in such a way as to annoy the others, "player freedom" would suggest the freedom to have their characters react in a realistic way -- which is not to buddy up with the PC again and again because the GM refuses to allow them to do otherwise!</p><p></p><p>Without more information it's hard to judge, but my tentative hypothesis is this: many of those who advocate for player freedom to determine the values of things in that setting - (what counts as good and evil, prudent and imprudent, and so on) are also strangely concerned with the player-determined values when dealing with a problem player. To wit:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">In the real world, I assume comparatively few people would think it permissible to execute, let alone summarily execute, a person simply for causing property damage. Yet look how many posters on this thread are saying that the other PCs are justified in killing this dwarf PC for destroying some loot. (Loot, furthermore, of arguable moral or aesthetic value - when someone attacked Piss Christ while it was being exhibited in Melbourne, not even the most ardent advocates of artistic free speech suggested that the attackers, who were motivated by religious objections to the work, should be killed!).</p><p></p><p>That seems at odds, to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The only thing I can say here is, WTF? I have no idea where this is coming from, or what your experience here could possibly be.</p><p></p><p>Any approach where the players determine what goals are being focused on, by definition, precludes a railroad (Dragonlance-style or otherwise) by definition, no matter what those goals are.</p><p></p><p>It is rather as though I said, "In my experience, applying black paint results in white walls".</p><p></p><p></p><p>RC</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5571784, member: 18280"] I would certainly say that players have the freedom to take action within the campaign milieu, but not that they have freedom to write the milieu. (There are games, of course, where this restriction need not apply, or would make no sense to apply.) The problem here is not that the player upset the GM by smashing the treasure, but, rather, that the player upset the [I][B]other players[/B][/I]. Something that may seem hard to grasp, perhaps, but it is not a subtle difference. Especially in a group where the same people meet every week/month/whatever to play, if one player is consistently playing in such a way as to annoy the others, "player freedom" would suggest the freedom to have their characters react in a realistic way -- which is not to buddy up with the PC again and again because the GM refuses to allow them to do otherwise! Without more information it's hard to judge, but my tentative hypothesis is this: many of those who advocate for player freedom to determine the values of things in that setting - (what counts as good and evil, prudent and imprudent, and so on) are also strangely concerned with the player-determined values when dealing with a problem player. To wit: [indent]In the real world, I assume comparatively few people would think it permissible to execute, let alone summarily execute, a person simply for causing property damage. Yet look how many posters on this thread are saying that the other PCs are justified in killing this dwarf PC for destroying some loot. (Loot, furthermore, of arguable moral or aesthetic value - when someone attacked Piss Christ while it was being exhibited in Melbourne, not even the most ardent advocates of artistic free speech suggested that the attackers, who were motivated by religious objections to the work, should be killed!).[/indent] That seems at odds, to me. The only thing I can say here is, WTF? I have no idea where this is coming from, or what your experience here could possibly be. Any approach where the players determine what goals are being focused on, by definition, precludes a railroad (Dragonlance-style or otherwise) by definition, no matter what those goals are. It is rather as though I said, "In my experience, applying black paint results in white walls". RC [/QUOTE]
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