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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5576785" data-attributes="member: 18280">That's an interesting question, but I am not sure that it is relevant to what happened in the OP, or how a &quot;Wisdom Check&quot; is used in general.&nbsp; But, at least here, I can see what you're trying to get at.....even if I do not agree.Yes, lots of folks play games where the metagame is entwined with what happens in-game.&nbsp; You play 4e; this can hardly be news to you.&nbsp; Group disharmony can arise from in-game actions, especially if those in-game actions appear to arise from a metagame &quot;screw you&quot; motivation.&nbsp; Or, obviously, when there is a metagame feeling of entitlement to freedom from the consequences of action, which is not actually played out in the in-game milieu.In the case of the OP, the GM used a method to ensure that the player had the opportunity to know what the in-game norm was.&nbsp; Nothing more; nothing less.In the case of the OP, the question is, should the metagame feeling of entitlement to freedom from the consequences of action be played out in the in-game milieu?My answer is not only No, but Hell No.Yes.....because that is relevant to the question posed by the OP.&nbsp; The in-game actions of one player caused a material loss to the group.&nbsp; Should the metagame feeling of entitlement to freedom from the consequences of that action (by some of the group, and related specifically to that material loss) be played out in the in-game milieu?If the OP's question had been about &quot;thematic consequences within the gameworld - choices made, values affirmed, emotions realised or thwarted&quot;, then the answers no doubt would focus on the same.&nbsp; It should not be considered at all unusual for an answer to a question to focus on the subject of the question.&nbsp; That doesn't mean that games in which material goods can be gained and lost cannot or do not also include other consequences.Some people refer to the causal patterns of fiction as &quot;plot&quot;, and refer to the causal patterns of character growth as &quot;satisfying&quot;.&nbsp; Indeed, even fiction which is strongly character-driven or thematically driven relies upon imposing a natural-seeming causal process to make the fiction seem like anything other than the Hand of the Author Moving His Pieces Around.Fiction that is not concerned with affirming causal patterns is usually called &quot;Unpublsihed&quot; and often called &quot;Unpublishable&quot;.&nbsp; It has been said that one of the primary draws that fiction holds upon is the affirmation of causality, which we are often unable to trace in real life, but need desperately to believe in to give our lives meaning.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5576785, member: 18280"] That's an interesting question, but I am not sure that it is relevant to what happened in the OP, or how a "Wisdom Check" is used in general. But, at least here, I can see what you're trying to get at.....even if I do not agree. Yes, lots of folks play games where the metagame is entwined with what happens in-game. You play 4e; this can hardly be news to you. Group disharmony can arise from in-game actions, especially if those in-game actions appear to arise from a metagame "screw you" motivation. Or, obviously, when there is a metagame feeling of entitlement to freedom from the consequences of action, which is not actually played out in the in-game milieu. In the case of the OP, the GM used a method to ensure that the player had the opportunity to know what the in-game norm was. Nothing more; nothing less. In the case of the OP, the question is, should the metagame feeling of entitlement to freedom from the consequences of action be played out in the in-game milieu? My answer is not only No, but Hell No. Yes.....because that is relevant to the question posed by the OP. The in-game actions of one player caused a material loss to the group. Should the metagame feeling of entitlement to freedom from the consequences of that action (by some of the group, and related specifically to that material loss) be played out in the in-game milieu? If the OP's question had been about "thematic consequences within the gameworld - choices made, values affirmed, emotions realised or thwarted", then the answers no doubt would focus on the same. It should not be considered at all unusual for an answer to a question to focus on the subject of the question. That doesn't mean that games in which material goods can be gained and lost cannot or do not also include other consequences. Some people refer to the causal patterns of fiction as "plot", and refer to the causal patterns of character growth as "satisfying". Indeed, even fiction which is strongly character-driven or thematically driven relies upon imposing a natural-seeming causal process to make the fiction seem like anything other than the Hand of the Author Moving His Pieces Around. Fiction that is not concerned with affirming causal patterns is usually called "Unpublsihed" and often called "Unpublishable". It has been said that one of the primary draws that fiction holds upon is the affirmation of causality, which we are often unable to trace in real life, but need desperately to believe in to give our lives meaning. RC [/QUOTE]

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