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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5580382" data-attributes="member: 18280">Just for the record, I've run B2 in Holmes Basic, 1e, 2e, and 3e, for various groups of players over the years.&nbsp; &quot;The PCs will succeed in clearing out the Caves of Chaos, making the area safe for human habitation&quot; is actually one of the least likely outcomes IME.I've seen PCs move on to other challenges while the Caves were half occupied, become leaders of orc tribes, get slaughtered by lizard men before reaching the Caves, wipe out the Keep, etc., etc.&nbsp; That the Caves will be entirely neutralized is actually, IME, rare.&nbsp; They are the gift that keeps on giving.IMHO, once you (esp. as a GM) have decided what the end-point will be, the consequences of PC actions begin to sculpt toward that end-point, rather than flowing naturally from what has occurred.&nbsp; This actually removes agency from the players.&nbsp; Their choices matter less (sometimes much, much less), because whatever they choose, they'll always end up at (roughly) the same point.This is one way that a good game (IMHO and IME) is not like riding a roller coaster.&nbsp; When you ride a roller coaster, you always know where the ride will end.&nbsp; When you play a good game, where things draw to a conclusion is entirely the result of the decisions of the players, filtered through the context and consequences determined by the GM.&nbsp; It cannot be predicted ahead of time.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5580382, member: 18280"] Just for the record, I've run B2 in Holmes Basic, 1e, 2e, and 3e, for various groups of players over the years. "The PCs will succeed in clearing out the Caves of Chaos, making the area safe for human habitation" is actually one of the [I][B]least[/B][/I] likely outcomes IME. I've seen PCs move on to other challenges while the Caves were half occupied, become leaders of orc tribes, get slaughtered by lizard men before reaching the Caves, wipe out the Keep, etc., etc. That the Caves will be entirely neutralized is actually, IME, rare. They are the gift that keeps on giving. IMHO, once you (esp. as a GM) have decided what the end-point will be, the consequences of PC actions begin to sculpt toward that end-point, rather than flowing naturally from what has occurred. This actually removes agency from the players. Their choices matter less (sometimes much, much less), because whatever they choose, they'll always end up at (roughly) the same point. This is one way that a good game (IMHO and IME) is [i][b]not[/b][/i][b][/b] like riding a roller coaster. When you ride a roller coaster, you always know where the ride will end. When you play a good game, where things draw to a conclusion is entirely the result of the decisions of the players, filtered through the context and consequences determined by the GM. It cannot be predicted ahead of time. RC [/QUOTE]

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