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Message: <blockquote data-quote="random user" data-source="post: 1532835" data-attributes="member: 16581">It's always easy to play what-ifs.  I'm sure that there are many things that could have been done to change things around.  Whther one would think about them or whether they could have realistically been done is unknown.Here are some thoughts:1. did the monk know whether the something had already seen the party or the ranger? (ie did the monk see that the orcs were waiting in ambush?).  If so, then all chance of surprising them has been lost, and the monk should have called for the ranger to hide or run back.  Alternately, a smart party will ideally have someone that can fake a bird call or something similar to alert the ranger there is a problem, or, lacking that, a signal whistle which is less ideal.  If there is a good chance that the ranger is stepping into an ambush though, it may be the best option.2. Did the monk and ranger get their actions before the orcs? If so they could have retreated.  If not, well, it's not good to be split up and ambushed... not too much you can do about that after you are already there.3. Did the fighter have combat expertise? It seems like if you can get the monk and the ranger back up, you guys are going to win.  Thus, stalling may be a good strategy here.  If the fighter can draw the attacks of the orcs and not get hit, that would be good.  Not sure about going full defensive if he doesn't have combat expertise.  On the other hand, 4 raging orcs aren't going to be missing that much (well, except they are blinded, did they roll the 50% miss for total concealment?)4. If the fighter was within an inch of his life, why did the cleric not heal him? Also this would be a good time to go full defensive / full combat expertise with the fighter if not already done.  He's already gotten the attention of the orcs, now he needs to stay alive.5. Did the cleric have a hold person? Raging orcs aren't going to have a good will save.  Doing that in the first round would have helped a lot.  With such high stats a cleric should have 2+1 2nd level spells.Here's a way you may have won.Monk alerts ranger that there is a trap.  Ranger dives under cover.  4 orcs appear.  Cleric holds person; wizard casts glitterdust.  Fighter and monk use range weapons, fighter issues the challenge to orcs to get their attention.Next round, another hold person and the color spray if necessary.  Fighter and monk close in to melee.  Ranger comes from in back and should be able to flank. Now the fight should be down to 5 on 2 (between 2x hold person, glitterdust (though tasha's might have been better there if the wizard knew it), and color spray at least 2 should be out of the picture) for long enough that that they two should die before the other two are active again.  Then kill the other two.Not saying that it would definately have worked (rolls might go against you) but I would think that certainly you had a chance.Others have mentioned that the 4 level 5s is quite a challenge in terms of CR.  However, the party has increased stats and decent magic, and has 5 members instead of 4.  I think it should have been a tough but winnable fight, if you hadn't gotten ambushed.The main problem with this, of course, is that you would have had to realize that 4 orcs were a real threat instead of some chump scouting force.  Unless you had a warning somehow, I can't see most parties wasting so many resources on 4 orcs immediately.</blockquote>

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