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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6186268" data-attributes="member: 7006">But you're not double-dipping.&nbsp; STR is already the ability you use for Grapple and Knock Down.&nbsp; You make a STR check against an opponent's STR or DEX check.&nbsp; But here's the issue:&nbsp; you will never get better at Grapple or Knock Down as you advance in level, unlike attacking with a weapon.&nbsp; You get better with weapons as you level because you add your Proficiency bonus to your attack roll.&nbsp; That currently doesn't happen with the Grapple or Knock Down action.It's my thinking that yes... the Grapple and Knock Down actions should get better as you go up in level just like all attacks and checks do (because they add the Proficiency bonus).&nbsp; So the question is... how do you make them better?&nbsp; Do you go the 3E method of making feats like Improved Grapple or Improved Trip (where the feat allows you to add a bonus?)&nbsp; Or should we just use the system we already have in place and allow you to add your Proficiency bonus to your STR checks to Grapple and Knock Down?To me... that makes the most sense because it follows the same format as every other ability check in the game.&nbsp; And since it is an ability check... you might as well just make it a Skill to select as the reason to add your Proficiency bonus (rather than making a Feat that says &quot;Add your proficiency bonus to Grapple or Knock Down&quot;, since I think we can all agree that that is NOT equivalent to the +1 to an ability score, and thus is a bad Feat.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 6186268, member: 7006"] But you're not double-dipping. STR is [I]already[/I] the ability you use for Grapple and Knock Down. You make a STR check against an opponent's STR or DEX check. But here's the issue: you will never get better at Grapple or Knock Down as you advance in level, unlike attacking with a weapon. You get better with weapons as you level because you add your Proficiency bonus to your attack roll. That currently doesn't happen with the Grapple or Knock Down action. It's my thinking that yes... the Grapple and Knock Down actions should get better as you go up in level just like all attacks and checks do (because they add the Proficiency bonus). So the question is... how do you make them better? Do you go the 3E method of making feats like Improved Grapple or Improved Trip (where the feat allows you to add a bonus?) Or should we just use the system we already have in place and allow you to add your Proficiency bonus to your STR checks to Grapple and Knock Down? To me... that makes the most sense because it follows the same format as every other ability check in the game. And since it is an ability check... you might as well just make it a Skill to select as the reason to add your Proficiency bonus (rather than making a Feat that says "Add your proficiency bonus to Grapple or Knock Down", since I think we can all agree that that is NOT equivalent to the +1 to an ability score, and thus is a bad Feat.) [/QUOTE]

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