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<blockquote data-quote="abeattie" data-source="post: 4283013" data-attributes="member: 61684">Hmm.. this thread became monsterous before I got through it -- but let me suggest the following.1) if we're going to assume PCs are buying up to 18s, then the starting PC will likely have a 20 in their &quot;best&quot; skill -- assuming a racial link-up.2) further -- most of the races give +2 to two skills, bumping the &quot;best&quot; skill by another 4 levels worth of bonus.3) If your DM is skill-challenge happy, may I suggest skill focus to get that +3 (6 levels of bump).I will include 1 and 2 and discount 3 as too much of a commitment..so the starting PC (at level 1) is rolling d20 + 5 for training, +5 for attribute, +2 for race. (+12)Other factors may come into play to move it further (+1 to everyone's diplomacy if a half-elf is in the group, for instance). So starting out there is a flat 60% pass rate per roll against a moderate DC. (75% passage rate for the skill focused PC.) Yes -- if you want your first level party to pass without minmaxing their PCs, either they need to get luck, or you need to softball the encounter. (or let them fail). Where things shift is at 2nd level. Many of the classes gain abilities that give them bonuses to a skill check, let an ally reroll a skill check, let the PC re-roll, etc. In other words -- if you want to succeed at skill challenges you need to actually use utility powers. The extra plus one kicks in at 2nd level as well -- pushing odds of success on individual rolls on the &quot;best&quot; skill up to 65% base -- with one or two rerolls, or a skill bonus. I won't commit to calling it a balanced system, but I don't think it is as off as suggested.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="abeattie, post: 4283013, member: 61684"] Hmm.. this thread became monsterous before I got through it -- but let me suggest the following. 1) if we're going to assume PCs are buying up to 18s, then the starting PC will likely have a 20 in their "best" skill -- assuming a racial link-up. 2) further -- most of the races give +2 to two skills, bumping the "best" skill by another 4 levels worth of bonus. 3) If your DM is skill-challenge happy, may I suggest skill focus to get that +3 (6 levels of bump). I will include 1 and 2 and discount 3 as too much of a commitment.. so the starting PC (at level 1) is rolling d20 + 5 for training, +5 for attribute, +2 for race. (+12) Other factors may come into play to move it further (+1 to everyone's diplomacy if a half-elf is in the group, for instance). So starting out there is a flat 60% pass rate per roll against a moderate DC. (75% passage rate for the skill focused PC.) Yes -- if you want your first level party to pass without minmaxing their PCs, either they need to get luck, or you need to softball the encounter. (or let them fail). Where things shift is at 2nd level. Many of the classes gain abilities that give them bonuses to a skill check, let an ally reroll a skill check, let the PC re-roll, etc. In other words -- if you want to succeed at skill challenges you need to actually use utility powers. The extra plus one kicks in at 2nd level as well -- pushing odds of success on individual rolls on the "best" skill up to 65% base -- with one or two rerolls, or a skill bonus. I won't commit to calling it a balanced system, but I don't think it is as off as suggested. [/QUOTE]

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