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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 2621820" data-attributes="member: 151">I think you're both selling 5th-level spells short and used to very sub-optimized characters.  If an 11th+ level wizard or rogue is that easily incapacitated, they're not very good at their job, frankly. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Expertise is all good and well, but it's not a get out of jail free card in combat.  A well-designed barbarian with a few feats at that level is pretty chilling.  As for 5th level wizard spells: if you're going against a caster, particularly an enemy arcanist, Feeblemind is nasty, especially with the saving throw penalty.  Mind Fog is good for battlefield control as part of a 'set 'em up and knock 'em down' combo.  Cone of Cold is an old standby.  Wall of Force and Waves of Fatigue are, again, battlefield control.  Baleful Polymorph, especially to a Transmuter, is a smackdown in process.  And Telekinesis?  It's slices AND dices. Magic Missle's big appeal is: IT NEVER MISSES.  Without a shield up and no brooch of shielding , it can hit virtually anything.  Not a lot of damage, but it can destroy a ghost or a wererat with equal ease as an orc.  At low levels, that's huge.  Burning hands and shocking grasp are good ways to get yourself killed, if you're not careful.  Mind you, I whole-heartedly agree that Magic Missle is an overused spell...but that's because the core system offers few alternatives that are as good or useful.  Ranged Touch spells are ok, but not that great when your BAB is as poor as it is for a spellcaster.  And few ranged touch spells have the functionality of a Magic Missle.  Couple that with it's scaling ability, and you can see why it's so popular.  My sorceror is Barakus tried to be an enchanter, but after a couple of levels, he compromised with mage armor and magic missle.  They're just necessary to contribute, unless you add other options.</blockquote>

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