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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4250689" data-attributes="member: 4937">As others have said, 4 minions are supposed to be equal in threat to one monster of the same level.  That isn't exactly true.  Whether or not a horde of say 20 minions is as hard, harder, or easier than 5 non-minions of the same level depends alot on party composition.  If you have alot of close blast and ranged area powers, then 20 minions will probably go down very quickly.I'm sure that we will.  The sample characters WotC has provided so far are for the most part not nearly optimized.  It's probably easily possible to put together characters 10-30% more effective than the sample characters (depending on which one we are talking about), and with some thought to group synergy the party itself might be more effective than that.  That means as system mastery spreads about those groups most likely to give feedback to WotC, there will be widespread recognition that for a party of level X, 5 monsters of level higher level are a more appropriate challenge.And if you look, even for these non-optimized characters the party is being thrown at higher level challenges.  There is going to be some natural power inflation as more options become available and allow for greater and greater min/maxing.  On top of that, there will likely be something broken WotC releases.  They are almost certain to not recognize the essential factors in the power economy and overlook something.  They've proven this with Magic the Gathering cards again and again.I believe two orc warriors was a EL 1 encounter.  I don't think 4 1st level characters 'wipe the floor' with 2 orcs.  If you throw 2 orcs at a party of 1st level characters four times in quick succession, you are going to be very lucky not to end up with dead PCs.  This is especially true for 3.0 style great axe wielding orcs, but even 3.5 style falchion wielders are going to be scary.  That isn't to say that there weren't huge problems with the CR system.</blockquote>

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