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<blockquote data-quote="takasi" data-source="post: 3579229" data-attributes="member: 20194">I have to disagree; I think it's automatic if the illusionist tells you (and you believe the illusionist):&quot;A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. &quot;It doesn't say proof beyond the shadow of a doubt, or even multiple forms of proof.&nbsp; As long as there is any proof (which the above should qualify for) then no saving throw is necessary.Would you rule that a save happens as soon as you look at other illusions, like a wall?&nbsp; If not, then why not?&nbsp; What makes the cloud any different?&nbsp; Not just a miss chance; the opponent would lose LOS altogether.And with spell focus (illusion), at first level the gnome with 18 int will project images with a DC 17 (4 int + 1 feat + 1 racial +1 spell level), and at 3rd could take greater spell focus (illusion) for a DC 18.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even an opponent with a decent will save at this level will fail more often than not. Higher level spells are even better; they persist even after concentrating on them.&nbsp; They are also already heighten for you.&nbsp; The beguiler could easily deny opponents their dex modifier by attacking them from within the illusionary mist, increasing the DC on his phantasmal assailants, killers and shadow conjuration/evocation spells without the need to feint.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="takasi, post: 3579229, member: 20194"] I have to disagree; I think it's automatic if the illusionist tells you (and you believe the illusionist): "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. " It doesn't say proof beyond the shadow of a doubt, or even multiple forms of proof. As long as there is any proof (which the above should qualify for) then no saving throw is necessary. Would you rule that a save happens as soon as you look at other illusions, like a wall? If not, then why not? What makes the cloud any different? Not just a miss chance; the opponent would lose LOS altogether. And with spell focus (illusion), at first level the gnome with 18 int will project images with a DC 17 (4 int + 1 feat + 1 racial +1 spell level), and at 3rd could take greater spell focus (illusion) for a DC 18. Even an opponent with a decent will save at this level will fail more often than not. Higher level spells are even better; they persist even after concentrating on them. They are also already heighten for you. The beguiler could easily deny opponents their dex modifier by attacking them from within the illusionary mist, increasing the DC on his phantasmal assailants, killers and shadow conjuration/evocation spells without the need to feint. [/QUOTE]

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