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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 2698385" data-attributes="member: 35909">You make good points, and I understand that you don't like the "buff and bash" cleric.  But I contest your statement about a prepared cleric beating up a fighter in combat.  You're correct, but... a wizard can just as easily.  The difference is, the wizard doesn't litterally "bash", he just uses fly, invisibility, blink, tenser's transformation, shapechange/polymorph, ethereal jaunt, force cage, fire shield, etc... in some horrible combination.  Same basic end result.If no one gets heavy armor prof. for free, then denying the clerics is certainly fair.  Not having it isn't even so bad.  Just stick to breastplate until you can afford mithral fullplate.  As far as the trade of the spells for skills itself, it'll depend on the player.  I'd see it as a raw deal because I don't see much use in knowledge: local, and high wisdom and spells like discern lies and zone of truth make ranks in sense motive less worth the expenditure to a cleric.  If the cleric's really a people person, how about: 4 + int skill points and the following skills added to his list: bluff, intimidate, sense motive, and (possibly) gather information.  i might even give him knowledge: nobility and royalty, as religion and rulership are so often intertwined in both actual medieval times and medieval fantasy.  keep in mind, if you look at a class that gets 2 + skills points versus a 4 +, the lists usually have more than 2 skills difference, so adding 4 extra isn't necessarily out of line.  The cleric's still limited by his skill points how many skills he actually has.</blockquote>

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