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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ruemere" data-source="post: 5413307" data-attributes="member: 5515">(the post monster ate previous version of this post. I cannot salvage it so I need to write it all over again and so there may be some mistakes)My bias is that 4E ultimately reduces importance of a creature to hitpoints. Meaning, I do not like it and I do not think straight transplantation of such idea into 3.x is going to work.Still, being able to multiply creatures to flood the stage with extras is convenient and here is my take on this.Design note: inflating hitpoints does not result in appropriate scaling of Challenge Ratings. Additionally, to speed up math, adjustments of CR-1 / CR+1 are not as easy to handle in play as those which assume even numbers (i.e. CR-2 / CR+2), as these directly translate into doubling/halving numbers of creatures.Therefore Minions should be CR-2 (or CR-4) while Elites should be CR+2 (CR+4 being reserved for single BBEG battles).Design note #2 or how to quickly weaken creature: party-appropriate CR rating creature is supposed to last between two to four rounds of combat. Therefore a minion should last only a single round. Hitpoints do not allow to put a good estimate of creature survivability, as the ranged attackers and casters are likely to also use their abilities to nullify damage until the PCs somehow overcome distance or arcane defenses.So, let's make it simple and make the minions become a non-threat after first significant action.MINION (CR-2)Minion creature ceases to be a threat after first successful (and significant) action against characters. By applying the template to base creature, you can double the number of base creatures in encounter.Quick Rules: The creature acts as normal until it inflicts damage upon an opponent, applies negative effect to an opponent or applies positive effects to its peers. Immediately afterwards it begins to suffer -6 penalty to all rolls and loses ability to use any special attacks. If damaged, it will attempt to withdraw from combat or surrender.Design note #3 or how improve CR of a creature by 2: this is trickier as it is very easy to go overboard. Spellcasters, buffers, archers and brutes work differently and it is harder to make them twice as effective in the same way. Additionally, artificial inflation of hitpoints goes against system... however, the key here is: doubling. In other words, if you can make the creature be twice as effective by doubling its actions, you may be close. You just need to avoid doubling effectiveness of the primary attack mode as it would make fight too tricky to adjudicate.ELITE (CR+2)Elite creatures are harder to kill in more ways than one. By applying this template to base creature, you halve the number of base creatures in the encounter.Quick Rules: The creature gains Simple Advanced template twice (+4 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +8 to AC and CMD; +4 hp/HD), and additionally (pick one, the creature must still meet level dependent requirements):- spellcaster - bonus Quicken Spell feat- spellcaster - free active Contingency- buffer - ability to inspire peers as per Bard's Inspire Courage- buffer - ability to Channel Energy as a cleric of its level- archer - gain Evasion and improve speed by 10 feet- brute - gain bonus feats: Improved Iron Will (reroll Will save) and Toughness (+3 hitpoints, +(level-3) hitpoints)Regards,Ruemere</blockquote>

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