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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 3307844" data-attributes="member: 48965">I have read numerous posts where people seem totally against the "dumbing down" of D&D.  1.)What if any is the difference between simplification and " dumbing down"?2.) Is it better for a rules set to start simple and give more complexity as an option?  I find it harder and more time consuming to determine the effects rule A has on the rest of the game, take rule A out of said game and apply patch to fix said ramifications to the rest of the rule set and then play test my game without rule A.  To me its easier starting simple and having a certain amount of complexity added through supplemental books that explain the effects the new rules will have on the game(an example would be Unearthed Arcana 3.x edition), especially if I am new to a game.3.) To those who claim this model wouldn't sell as well I say that's the model that is being used right  now.  Since the core books came out we have had new types of actions, feats, spells, classes, class abilities, PrC's, uses for specific skills and general skills, etc. and those who want them, buy them.3.) why do people feel character options and complexity must go hand in hand.  To me Talislanta gives a myriad of possibilities in its magic system and is less complicated than remembering and applying the individual spells of D&D.4.) Why is simplification even looked at as dumbing down?  Why is it wrong for people to want a simpler set of rules if these simple rules can be built upon for those who want more complexity.  I feel as if this issue might just be elitism rearing its head in the hobby.    a.) Anyone who wants to play should have to take the time to read 300 pgs, otherwise they shouldn't be playing.Hate to say this but if I hadn't gotten interested in D&D when I was younger, I probably wouldn't be playing.  As it is now I find it a headache to run.  For some people games are just that, games meant to be played as a fun diversion.  Are these people wrong because in the realm of life they don't find reading and memorizing these text...uh rulebooks fun?    Yeah I know justy hand wave stuff.  Wait, better idea give me a simpler ruleset that I can play as is or add complexity to as I desire it.5.) Just a final note.  I have played with some new people(co-workers who had asked me about D&D) who turned out to be really great roleplayers, they were however turned off by the amount of rules knowledge necessary to effectively play a game of D&D.  Character creation alone had them kind of overwhelmed, and our first combat I had to use mini's so they could visualize the combat rules(which most ony had a faint grasp of).  I guess their reaction coupled with my expanding responsibilities as a grown man made me switch the game to C&C.  Have to say they love it, why? Because we are playing cool fantasy stories.  They are beginners and don't really need all the kewl optimizations, and builds etc. that us older gamers clamor for. It's new and exciting to them without all that.  Are they "dumb" because of that?  Do I want to give the hobby up? No.  Do I want to stop playing D&D, thats a harder question.  If the current level of complexity is where D&D is going to stay...Yeah I think I'll stick with games like True20 and C&C, YMMV.</blockquote>

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